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1943 Gibraltar B-24 killing General Władysław Sikorski

Discussion in 'WWII Films & TV' started by stgrhe, May 5, 2016.

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  1. youngbruno

    youngbruno New Member

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    Dear CAC
    Perhaps you need to visit my site to understand more.
     
  2. youngbruno

    youngbruno New Member

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    Hi CAC

    Sack my Agent?
    What we are explaining is what happened through the eyes of my father, what was done and why it was never noticed.
    You may say all you like but again you have not read the book that explains in details, all you do is shoot from the hip and hit walls.

    Perhaps you should visit the site, again someone who sprouts off even without reading the book what a load of BS .

    This was repeated as it rolled over to the next page.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017
  3. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    Anyone can write a book...heck even ive written one...means diddley.
    The method chosen was very hit and miss...not the job of a professional. He may have done it...but not the job of a professional.
     
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  4. youngbruno

    youngbruno New Member

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    Hi CAC
    Many thanks for your comments, look its what was done back then, he was trained by the Polish ZJ before they merged to NSZ-ZJ and sent loose, with a months training on how to sabotage the plane so it looked like an accident, so they if caught out could blame it on the maintenance crew!
    If you read the book it explains how agile my father was after living in the forest of Czechoslovakia in the snow up in trees for 4 months as he was a Brygada Swietokryska later.
    As I say it is what it is, this is why all the experts in the world and aviation havent found the answer, but to their credit they (Polish IPN) knew there was something wrong with the crash.
    Yes It may look in hindsight not the most accurate but I believe he was given an hour or so notice to stop Sikorski. I cant change what he did.
     
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  5. wm.

    wm. Active Member

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    The "Salamanders" actually called themselves Lizard Union. They wouldn't call themselves Salamanders it sounds stupid, so this and actually everything you've written about them is wrong. A real member of the Lizard Union wouldn't make such elementary mistakes.
    Majority of them were honest, dedicated, well educated people - they were mostly members of Polish elites, although pre-war some of them behave more like today's Antifa.

    It was a relatively small underground group in Poland, they engaged mostly in espionage. They weren't trained by anybody, they were self-taught. This is why so many of them didn't survive. As the entire early Polish Underground they were amateurs - and paid dearly for that.
    They were small in Poland, and didn't exist outside Poland - at all.

    You wrote "they also believed in the Sanacja" - it's absolutely incorrect - no member of the Union would ever say that.
    Pre-war they were prosecuted by the Sanacja regime - imprisoned without trial, physically attacked, sometimes murdered.

    They opposed Sikorski because they believed his Government wasn't entirely legitimate (it wasn't but who cared - and he solemnly promised free election after the war anyway), and because he didn't understand the Soviet danger (he did but it looked that way from Poland).
    Again, like today's Antifa, they were somewhat rigid in their thinking.
    It was all political matters, they didn't intent fight or die for such trivial things during the war. Similarly the fact the Democrats oppose Trump doesn't mean they would order his assassination.

    And of course they didn't order any assassination too, especially they were a relatively small groups with very limited means - they didn't even engage in real partisan activities.
    The most they (or rather people connected with them) ever did was execution of some people (believed to be Soviet spies) at the end of the war - when the entire Underground Movement was descending into chaos.

    And btw Sikorski didn't have any real bodyguards, especially 12 of them as you've written.
    As a soldier and war hero he saw no need for bodyguards, and would be offended by their presence. Although the plane was guarded by the good folks from No. 511 Squadron RAF.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017
  6. youngbruno

    youngbruno New Member

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    Hi WM

    The book is my fathers discussion to me as he tries to convert Polish to English and my back then when I was younger tried to explain himself.

    No my father referred to himself as a Salamander when I looked weirdly at him when he said this to me one day, he did infact say "Lizard Union" as you said then he said "you know a Lizard" I didn't get it until later he repeated himself, and yes they were a bit more organised than you think, Dad explained as they had a small printing unit that made forged documents etc. His was mostly as he said "intelligence and sabotage".

    Most like you said didn't do much, that's why I was taken aback!

    Explaining that he had up to 3 x full fake names and pseudonyms, his main one (p.s.) was in English translation as the "White Ghost".

    One of the scary finger waving's when talking to me was that he said "you never want a lizard after you!'..."better leave the country".

    Yes I in fact made a typo and somewhere else i think as well with this, it should have been "he believed in the Sanacja, ....." difficult doing this on a phone sometimes.

    Regardless of what you may say, they did not listen to the Polish Government in Exile.

    Also you need to know that Dad was a member at around the same time give or take a few months with Zbigniew Szubanski in Unit 993/W Assassination Unit or Revenge Company. They dished out executions to many types of people they wanted removed sanctioned by the Polish Government in Exile.

    How do I know this, as Zbigniew is officially recorded as the only one in charge until he was captured and released somewhere, as Zbigniew actually came over our place in the sixties and talked with us as quote: "Dad was his best" and all he ever did was organise assassinations. That's a fact and Dad explained some more to me.

    As for being a bodyguard, I was amazed that he "was one of a dozen" bodyguards he said, so it would have to be the protection team he had, but he did say bodyguard.

    But what he said was that as General Waldyslaw Sikorski befriended the Governor of Gibraltar, Dad befriended the Assistant to the Governor, that was as he said his best friend, "Tony". Tony was later explained to me to be Major Anthony Quayle the actor when watching a black and white movie together in the 1960s called The Guns of Navarone. I was amazed, he spoke so fondly of him, and explained a lot of things.

    Apparently when I questioned him that how could he speak to you as your English is very bad, Tony had learnt to speak polish in Bletchley Park back in England with the Polish Enigma crackers.

    He said to Dad he wants to kill lots of Russians, feels for Poland and that he was madly in love with a married women back at Bletchley Park and said one day he will get her as his wife.

    "Tony" enjoyed talking to Dad and was an SOE and allowed Dad to do extra things........not for this forum.

    About the guy in the Plane and yes that is why I am upset today, that this shouldn't have been done and the person in the back of the plane heard absolutely nothing.
     
  7. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Ah yes...Insults rather than facts. That always wins an argument. Correction...Insults rather than facts is a sure sign you are losing the argument. Please...Skip the insults, as I have been on the internet for a good long time, and have been insult by those far more creative than you.

    I have asked you legitimate questions, and would like to hear your answers - if you have any.
    1. Why were the controls working just fine during taxi, takeoff, and initial flight? Obviously they were not jammed by some "phantom" rag.
    2. How did our assassin reach the elevator well beyond his reach?
    3. If our inept assassin jammed the controls prior to takeoff, then why were the functioning just fine at takeoff?
     
  8. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Not to mention that the rag fell out at some point prior to takeoff. Either during preflight when the pilot tested the controls, engine run up, taxiing, or take off(as no problems were reported when the pilot pulled back on the controls of the B-24)
     
  9. youngbruno

    youngbruno New Member

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    Takao
    No because you gave the insults first and your tone and took things out of context, I dont really care to talk to you at all, I would have thought someone that has had thousands of messages would have indeed done so nicely, given you can be nice I see when you want to .
    Tit for tat is not for me, sorry.
     
  10. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    I had "lurked" it back in the day, it started in what 2012, IIRC.
     
  11. youngbruno

    youngbruno New Member

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    I dont believe you!
     
  12. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    What insults? I asked for your proof, and you provided me with a lengthy shill for you book, but not the proof that I had asked for...Quite frankly, I find that insulting.

    Then put them into context...

    I can be nice, but when I am looking for answers and get shill...Well, I don't feel that nice is required too much then.
     
  13. George Patton

    George Patton Canadian Refugee

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    Sorry but this is incorrect. I do not use Chrome on the computer which I used to access your site, and I am actually not even in Canada at the moment. As I said, I am curious about your analytics software which is capable of such a level of detail that you can track the specifics of any user and make a correlation with a user account on an unrelated public forum. Or was this an assumption possibly made because I am the only user who is Canadian to have visited your site on that day (and likewise for Takao)?

    BTW: Not trying to derail this thread, but I am confused over why you chose to make a point out of claiming to know the computer specifications of forum members when it is totally irrelevant to the topic at hand?
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017
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  14. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    His "analytic software" is what you and I would call a "brain," and his "analytic software" made what you and I would call an "assumption."
    Which is why he said I was on an iPad using Safari...Anyone who knows me, or has read my 'puter posts on this forum, knows I abhor all things crApple.
     
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  15. stgrhe

    stgrhe Active Member

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    It is probably the English documentary "WWII Air Crash Investigation Detectives - Sikorskis Last Flight".

    It is an interesting documentary (on YouTube) and the one thing they ruled out was the assassination theory.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
  16. youngbruno

    youngbruno New Member

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    Hi Stgrhe

    Unfortunately due to the 'carry ons' on this site, this will be my very last post, but before I go, I would like to point something out. as one of the many experts giving my book credit and validity was also the very same man who produced the "Sikorski's Last Flight' of which you are indeed talking about.

    He and I have been in discussions in detail for the past 1 1/2 years. He has produced the TV Documentary Series 'Sikorski's Last Flight' this is what you have mentioned. Garth Barnard is his full name from WW2 Air Crash Detectives Series. He is only awaiting the English Media Company that he worked for on the series so they can get the necessary funding from SBS which could take more than a year to get it Bank Rolled and I will remember this forum believe me and I will have something to say about this..

    You are right he originally really didn't 'believe in the assassination bit' ........that is until I gave him my complete manuscript, he has changed his mind.

    Now in writing "....but now, finally the truth..." (referring of course to the release of my specific book) after more than a decade of research.

    But please note that "Inside the book is his full reveal and his statement: that this is the only answer as far as all the years he has been investigating this".

    Below is only from the front page of our book's website with permission -
    Investigator/Presenter of WWII Air Crash Detectives – 'Sikorski’s Last Flight'
    General Wladyslaw Sikorski and 15 others were killed when the B-24 they were travelling in crashed shortly after take off from Gibraltar very nearly 74 years ago to this day.
    The crash on the 4th July 1943, where the pilot, Flight Lieutenant Eduard Prchal, survived, has been the subject of much discussion and debate. I would even go as far to say that this is probably the most talked about crash involving a high profile figure in the history of flight. The conspiracy theories have rattled on for years with the finger of blame, if it wasn't an accident, being pointed in many directions, but now, finally, the truth...
    2/7/2017
    Garth Barnard

    Also on the website, there are other's much more qualified to speak about my reveal .....other than the ones that I have been dealing with on this forum, as they are indeed 'Aircraft experts' familiar with Sikorski's type of plane.

    Including qualified aircraft mechanics, and one is a combination of both things a 'Canadian Aircraft / Polish Historian', who also has read the book thoroughly, to my understanding no-one at the time of writing from this forum has even read the book.

    Many thanks
    and goodbbye
     
  17. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    It is hard to have a discussion, when the only response to questions asked is "buy my book."
     
  18. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    I do hope the door doesn't hit him in the ass as he goes out...
     
  19. George Patton

    George Patton Canadian Refugee

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    Please don't say bad things about a group of anonymous online personas to an unknown television documentary producer. I don't know what I'd possibly do should that occur. It will destroy my reputation.
     

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