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Well, note that the examples you give never apply to the bases of Christianism, which is what I was talking about. I should probably have written that you can't see the bible as a source for cases that are very important to Christians, like the life of Jehoshua of Nazareth or things like that. It's not the whole book that is false.

 

Sorry, but are you saying that Christians should not accept any of the theology given in the Bible?

(remember the NT is a Primary source)

 

Huh?!

Uh, no. I'm saying that the Bible is an entirely different thing for a historian than it is for a Christian. For one it is a source of faith and a guideline in faith, yet for the other it is a potential source and criticism needs to be applied.

Why are you making all this trouble by being both historian and Christian? You're messing up my argument!

 

I'm sorry Roel, which would you like me to stop?

 

Hmm, take a wild guess!

 

Tough!
I quite enjoy being a fly in the ointment - especially when it means a carefully-constructed arguament against something I hold dear is shattered!

I still haven't forgiven you for the great 'Denise Richards' controversy!

 

When I got to know a now-friend who had studied history here in Holland I was very surprised to learn he was also a Christian; I remember the first thing I thought was "but how can you have studied history without losing your religion?" Now I meet another one of those contradictios.

Prove me wrong! I'm still awaiting a picture where she isn't looking "like a constipated camel"!

 

The first thing you learn is how mankind likes to pervert Religion to his own uses.
I can't really think of any examples where this has not been the case (although this is only noticeable in the 'gentler' religions such as Christianity. More 'martial' religions like the Celtic stuff, or Sikhism so not need to be perverted, but just need certain aspects highlighting).

 

Yes, and wouldn't that convince you of how relative religion is to the culture and state where it has its followers? Only through intensive missionary work or the appliance of force has a religion ever crossed a border, for example.

 

Nah - that just shows how people in power will use every means possible to stay there (and hopefully to enlarge their power). They tend to see religion as a tool.

Ths is why Britain orginally became Catholic, rather than continuing with the Celtic Church, which had become very big after the Romans left.
They held the Synod of Whitby, officially to decide when Easter should be celebrated (Celts had the correct date of after Passover, Catholic had an incorrect date based on 'Christianised' ceremonies). The English 'High King' of the time decided in favour of the Catholics, simply because the Catholic Church preached obediance, while the Celtic Church preached love. Obediance is far more attractive to a King.
(these events are 6th or 7th Century, in case you were wondering)

 

I was not calling anyone a liar but Satan; he is the "father of lies", as it says in the Bible. The authors and friends Roel quoted have, unfortunately, swallowed his lies and embraced them. I do not, however, doubt that they fully believe the views that they have expressed; more's the pity.

 

And obviously those ideas can't possibly be true. :-?

 

Precisely.

 

Trying to get back onto the topic of anti-American feeling in the world...

An amusing sidelight.

A familiar scene in any anti-American riot is the burning of American flags.
Americans, quite rightly, get a bit annoyed at that.
I have even seen American bumper stickers saying "our flag's not for burning".
Well, when I was over in America, I bought an American flag for my girlfriend. When we opened the plastic box it was kept in, there was a little booklet on how to care for your flag, but called something like: 'how to properly respect your wonderful American flag'. (apologies on poking fun at your patriotism, but it was a little over-the-top :-? )
It had pages of helpful advice on how to clean your flag, how to fold your flag, which way up it goes (!), a bunch of tradition/patriotism, and so on.
It also said that when you dispose of your American flag, you should burn it!
:lol:

 

I believe I need to redirect you to the Comprehensive Guide to Sarcasm, written by the Great Skua and noted in a different topic.

 

Why? Your statement was precisely what I needed to cap my point. And I do very much appreciate it, Roel.

 

Well, might I ask how their beliefs are different from yours in form, if obviously in contents? They express a scientific view on a historical character, you provide a religious view. Apart from that both are beliefs, and one is not necessarily better than the other if there is still a dispute about which one is true.

To you the religious view is true. Therefore there is no dispute, the truth is known, and obviously the truth is better than any other view. I agree with that assumption. However, to me, the second view is true. Yet I am willing to discuss your view here, not denying it entirely, not proclaiming it to have come from Evil and ensnared its 'preachers', and not simply ignoring the other potential views out there no matter how ridiculous and even dangerous I may find them.

Which of us is promoting free discussion?

 

At what point have I not promoted free discussion? Have I attempted to silence you or those whom you have quoted? No, I haven't. I have simply expressed my view of what they said. Nor did I say anything bad about them; it is strictly forbidden by God for me (or any Christian, for that matter) to judge other people, lest we be judged, something we would like to avoid in the particular context used here.

 

David and I were discussing the Christian religion, and I quoted some people, and he accepted some of my views and denied others by argument. Then you came in, told me that the authors I quoted had embraced the devil's lies, and that's the end of it! Well, I call that stopping the discussion.

I've got some more quotes claiming that certain parts of the Bible are subjective, incomplete, biased or untruthful. You want them? Then you can call more people embraced by the devil in lie and sin. The authors may even be Christians, but what the heck! "Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways; and the way of peace they do not know."

Do you know where I got this quote btw?

 

No Christian would say what those authors said. I expressed my opinion of what they said, and that is all. If you allowed that to stop the discussion, then that's on your head, not mine. Your quotes can claim what they like about the Bible; I know better. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, and I respect that, whether or not I agree with it. However, Roel, you don't seem to find it amiss to put down and show disrespect to my faith and God's Holy Word, yet you get mad because I disregard the words of men. You might want to look very hard at which of us is being insulting.