A Bridge Too Far

I think that Montgomery was a desk officer who became a chief of staff just by school and reading books. Well, he did learn many valuable lessons of his own combat experiences in WWI. But still I do not like him any of his plannes, except for Market Garden. I do not like him when he used Rommel's "south surrounding" or when he invaded Italy from the very South, which is idiotic... etc. But Market Garden was perfectly conceived in paper. Tacticly and stratigicly well planned.

And no, I do not think that Monty was afraid of the front. He had been seriously wounded in WWI and in Africa he was always at the front in a tank which was supossely "hidden". But he liked his troops to see him, so his tank had a lot of special banners and you could see his head out of the tank with his little Mütze (in English it is...?). So, his men knew he ws there, but we could see that too...

 

Will post more when I get back from holiday, maybe a couple of weeks im afraid gentlemen. If any of you are in England I highly recommend you pay a visit to the airborne forces museum in Aldershot. It has some interesting exhibits including all the planning models used for operation Tonga, Bruneval Raid, Varsity and Arnhem.

 

Damned... I am an Ocean away...

 

you could see his head out of the tank with his little Mütze (in English it is...?).

Well literally it's "cap", but in Monty's case, it was a beret.

 

Monty and Arnhem..will it ever stop?

Certainly Monty was not a desk officer (Ike fits that description far better). I cannot think of any British General who was less of one. His performance with his division in 1940 caught Brooke's eye and if anyone has read the latest edition of Brooke's diaries they'll know how well his failings and strengths were known to his key proponent.

It was a bold plan, outwardly unlike Monty. Yet it was still very much a set-piece, which is very much like Monty. The problem was too many things went wrong. All plans can accomodate a certain amount of disasters, but Arnhem simply had too many and fell apart.

1) The blowing of the Son bridge
2) Failure to take Nijmegen Bridge
3) The shooting gallery road
4) Landing sites had to be 7 miles out at Arnhem
5) Those radios.
6) Two Brigadiers arguing with each other whilst Urquhart is cut off
7) Bad weather over England delayed the Poles
8) The SS Furstenberg and Hohenstaufen Divs

The list goes on and on. For Monty's critics, could any other allied General have done this better? Patton was hopeless at deliberate planning, Bradley would have had another nervous breakdown, Crerar was out of his depth already. I think I would have trusted Devers to do it as he'd done well handling Dragoon.

Sorry but I think the allies (all of them)we still fairly ill-served at the army level and above by their officers.

Jumbo

 

Hey 9th, coming from a Red Sox fan, that is a GREAT line/analogy!!!
(Wait- you're probably a Yankees fan. Sorry- can't talk to you anymore! )

On the Monty issue, I must say this thread has changed my mind a bit... Generally, I think Monty was way to conservative, and as mentioned earlier, he had way too much of a habit of not securing gains. BUT- One does have to look at MArket Garden as an impressive plan. Especially for Monty, Market Garden was quite a change from the usual...
I'd have to say the main reason for Market Garden's failure was intelligence- the presence of the 9th and 10th SS. French resistance intelligence had reported heavy panzer formations in the area to the allies, yet this information was summarily ignored. This became to main problem- many of the smaller problem with the operation could have been overcome. Despite the weather, the drops, and the chaos, the allied paratroops generally reached their destinations. Problem was, once they got there, especially the main bridge at Arnhem, there were strong german forces present. Both sides experienced confusion and delay in the battle; since the germans had more troops in the area, these delays could be accomodated. We know the allies however could not accomodate any delays.
Along the same lines as Jumbo's point- for Market Garden to wrok, most everything had to go perfect. Once things started to fall apart, this only snowballed.

 

Well, it was a risky and audacious plan. A very good one. But everything which could go wrong went wrong... Even for us things were wrong, because we were superior to the Allies. It was SS armour against infantry. We should have smashed and anhilate them, but because of the situation, Bittrich could not do it.

 

Back from holiday!!! Been reading 'It never snows in september' by robert kershaw. A truly amazing book. it will change your perceptions on the battle for arnhem, it has changed mine!

the reason for the failure lies in the quick response of german forces and the ability of german commanders to create forces out of vitually nothing.

One interesting point that kershaw makes is that if the british had landed nearer the bridge the chances would have been worse as the german response would have been even quicker.

 

RedBaron

You get that impression reading Ryan's book. Student effectively kidnapping a Division travelling by rail through his sector, kampfgruppe being thrown together and hurled into the Hexenkessel. I'm not sure I agree with Kershaw's theory that landing closer would have been worse, but neither do i think it automatically would have been better. Certainly the reasoning facing the RAF and 1st Airborne based on intelligence about the ground around Arnhem herded them in one direction.

Jumbo

 

Glad to see you back, RedBaron.

Quite right - again and again, no matter how much one reads, theorizes, argue about the plan, walk the battlefield, everything comes back to Sosabowski's famous remark :

'But the Germans , General - what about the Germans...? '

There is no escaping the fact that at Arnhem, they were bloody good.....

 

Hi Guys,

I've just joined this forum. This post has really interested me for two things.

The first being the mention of Martin Middlebrook's Arnhem 1944. There was a quote in that from a German veteran. He said the worst mistake the Germans made at Arnhem was to win the battle because it prolonged the war.

The second was my Grandfather who was a paratrooper in WWII. He was lucky enough not to go to Arnhem because he had been wounded. One of my most profound memories is of him looking at soldiers at Arnhem. He'd say 'I knew him'. He'd then tell you a story about the guy. He would almost certainly finish the story with 'He didn't make it back. He lost most of his best mates there.

 

Jumbo

I dont think it would have been worse, i think the outcome would remain the same. I believe it was an excellent plan, whose tactical and strategic errors made by commanders on the ground, helped German to win its last true victory in the West. For too long the German role in the British defeat has been put to one side and it has been viewed that the British lost Arnhem, but the GERMANS TOOK CONTROL AND won THE BATTLE, WITH THE USE OF THE KAMPFGRUPPE. But the Germans are amazed at the British resilience to such a dramatic response.

I think we just got out fought by the Germans and we still dont like to admit it in our history books, hence the reason for all the excuses.

TheRedBaron.

 

Hi RedBaron

I admit that the Germans are often overlooked, except as one of the mischances (we accidentally landed on...etc).

I think partially this lies with US criticisms of Monty (see above how Patton would have done better blah..blah..blah) and a degree of British self-justification because if you look at the German response it is blindingly swift. But these guys were "beaten" in August 1944 so how come they managed to do this...?

It was a gamble which failed. I still think it could have worked though, even at the end the allies were still close enough to victory not to write off the plan entirely.

Jumbo

 

Nice thought, everybody!

It could have worked, but it was a gamble and you cannot always win when gambling...

And I think that we did our job quite fine, because we could achieve a minor victory with our supossely "weak" forces.

 

Maps and pics of Market Garden

http://www.extraplan.demon.co.uk/PMaps.htm

http://www.extraplan.demon.co.uk/photos.htm

 

G'day

Nice info on Jaap Been;s site
http://home-2.worldonline.nl/~cb008074/tourintro.htm
a sort of virtual battlefieldtour.With the Club Route 30 Corps picture


Cheers Pop

[ 26. September 2003, 01:01 AM: Message edited by: Popski ]

 

hey Pop, thanx for the map, it's a really good view from the top.

 

Its me again!
having also been on the Market garden operation. I had the dubious honour of being sent on the Nijmegen to Arnehm road to get as far as I could. being brought back to Mook and looking across in to the Reichwal. the down to Overloon and Venraij.

looking back, I did get to some very historic places, and in some very historic battles...
Still here as well!.
Sapper Brian.

 

And you had Elliott Gould to tell you how to build a bridge!!! Must be true, saw it in the film!

No.9

 

One of my greatest regrets was to never walked on German soil...Looked across into Germany, Then they caught up with me (Again)
Sapper.