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A fully intact French navy for the Germans

Discussion in 'What If - European Theater - Western Front & Atlan' started by Hands, Apr 15, 2006.

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  1. von_noobie

    von_noobie Member

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    Not saying that the Royal navy couldnt do it but wouldnt the Royal Navy have to come very close to the ports to attack the ships making them perfect targets for the Luftwaffe and U-boats and the few fully crewed ships.
     
  2. T. A. Gardner

    T. A. Gardner Genuine Chief

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    The problem with the scenario remains one of where the French ships are at the time the Germans take over. Much of the French fleet is not stationed in metropolitan France but rather in ports overseas that are French colonies and possessions.
    Historically, the major fleet units were primarily in North African ports. Another group was in Caribbean waters at Martinique. There were additional units in British ports that had been operating with them. And, finally, there were units at sea.
    So, if this is the state of the French fleet when the call goes out to hand over their ships to local German agents / military forces much of the fleet is not going to have any protection from the Luftwaffe or U-boats (of which just a relative handful are at sea and most are in the North Atlantic and in no position to help). So, the British are still highly likely to demolish the French fleet wherever it is. It is also likely that some ships like those at Martinique are forceably interned by other nations. The US essentially did this originally with these vessels; I see no reason they wouldn't in this scenario.
     
  3. Kibblesnbits

    Kibblesnbits Dishonorably Discharged

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    As teachers we remind the class it's rude to interrupt a conversation or attack the question. I notice the post-initiator isn't here anymore. Could be afraid to post with people calling his efforts 'absurd'? and diverting from topic? Just a thought.

    If he's still monitoring, yes son, I think it's an interesting question.
    Many were shocked at how lenient Hitler was in dealing with France when he could have demanded it all, and to many, maybe should have. As it was, he didn't take full advantage of France, resources, industry or otherwise. Granted he was trying to appease the British, but many also don't realize that just before surrender, there was a serious consideration to joining France and the UK into one new nation/empire....to stave off surrender. Many also believe Churchill was wrong for allowing France out of the terms of 'no separate peace', but everyone was playing for world opinion at the time and many don't realize just how influential pro-Nazi sentiment was in 'allied' countries.

    I agree with Dash, (I won't say Balderdasher because I'm going shiny up top there too eh buddy? lol)...even if Germany didn't get to use them, their absence alone from the world's seas on Britain's behalf would be a huge back-step. The British and French Admiralties were well aware of the waste of redundancy and instead had already done a great deal to optimize sharing of responsibilities. Once the French Fleet was taken out of the mix, that's like losing every second man in your defensive line.

    I think history doesn't give enough credit to how valuable those Free French naval units were, especially in the first half of the war when the Axis came closer than most might think to starving Britain out.

    Some might be surprised at just how much support the Nazis had in French and British politics too. Sometimes the silent majority is ruled by the louder more pushy minority. The American twice divorcee Mrs Wallace Simpson whom the King abdicated for, was a great admirer of Hitler's and she and the American hero Lindberg even Ford were not alone. But I'm being impolite and diverting from your question, sorry.

    Absolutely just the absence of the French Fleet from the Allied cause was a blow, and if ordered home as per terms, I think it would have worried the English more than historical and tempted Hitler to reconsider his 'conditional surrender' demands of France.

    Hope you come back son, I liked the question.
     
  4. angriff

    angriff recruit

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    The French had the 4th largest navy in the world in 1940. They had the only full compliment battle group that could travel 30+ knots.

    The French Navy had an agreement with the British that the ships would never be used by the Germans. This agreement was made before the war. The British attack at Oran and Alexandria was a travesty of paranoid British. Yet they destroyed very little of the French fleet. In fact major ships escaped under British fire.

    The real testament to this fact was the scuttling of the fleet in 1942. The Germans were attempting to take over the fleet. When the French naval officers got wind of this the general scuttle order went out. The French officers did this under the threat of being shot. One might think this was not such a brave act but when faced with a loaded gun in your face as you ordered the scuttleing you might think different.

    Oh the reason Hitler was so lenient was because the French made that demand in the armistice and the interpretation was left open. Of course Hitler was a land thinking maniac.
     
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