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Admiral Kimmel's Family Seek Reputation Restoral

Discussion in 'WWII Today' started by GRW, Jan 3, 2017.

  1. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Nagumo's Chief of Staff told the admiral "We may take it for granted that all eight battleships will be in the harbor tomorrow" (Sunday, Dec. 7th, Oahu Time). Italics mine.

    The messages regarding ship movements are in the Pearl Harbor Attack Hearings and the "Magic" documents.
     
  2. USMCPrice

    USMCPrice Idiot at Large

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    In working from memory so excuse a lack of precision, but the lack of intell shared about Japanese espionage (IIRC the source was FBI), i.e. the request for Pearl Harbor ship berthing locations and sailing schedules. The failure to timely notify Kimmel when the last 14 part message was decoded and it became apparent the timing indicated Pearl Harbor. Then you have the over compartmentalization that hampered proper analysis of raw inteligence. Pearl Harbor not having access to J-19(?) decrypts where Japan seemed to be particularly interested in ship positions. Washington interpreted it as probably related to sabotage and Kelly Turner wouldn't allow the message texts to be sent to Pearl, where an alternate, and correct interpretation possibly would have been reached.

    I'm not suggesting any of the revisionist arguments such as "Roosevelt knew", nor am I trying to absolve Kimmel or Short for what in retrospect were poor decisions. I am just stating that internal dysfunction in Washington shares in the blame.

    I agree with an internal NSA assessment on the issue that was released through a Freedom of Information Act request, (FOIA Case#51633);

    Pearl Harbor still has a poignant relevance today to us as cryptologists, as well as to
    us as Americans. The conclusions are as timeless as the problem we confronted.
    First, interservice and intraservice rivalry always loses. If the coordination between
    Army and Navy was bad in Washington and in Hawaii, it was even worse within the
    Navy itself. Admiral Turner unquestionably harmed the defense effort through
    overzealous aggrandisement and turf quarrels. It was inexcusable then - it is inexcusable
    today. And it can be seen everywhere one goes in the Federal Government.
    There is a delicate balance between the requirements of secrecy and the needs of the
    customer. At Pearl Harbor this balance was not properly struck. Information was kept
    from field commanders on whose shoulders the administration had placed a great deal of
    responsibility.
    Information did not flow because we feared losing the source. It remained
    bottled up in Washington, serving as small talk for intelligence professionals, State
    Department officials, and a limited number of operational staff planners. It is not easy to
    achieve a balance, but it must be done, constantly, in thousands of daily decisions over
    disclosure and dissemination. We face the same decisions today, in far greater quantity,
    though with no greater consequence. We weren't smart about it then. Are we now?​
    *Emphasis mine
    With rigorous analysis of all sources it is hard to see how we could have missed the
    signs. There were too many of them to miss. Sigint and Humint (there was no Photint)
    provided enough information to alert even the most complacent. But they were not being
    integrated and reported in thoughtful, prescient reports. They were being shuttled about
    Washington in black bags, fragmented and uncorrelated. Wohlstetter's "noise" thesis
    applies to the situation as it existed in 1941. It was a situation made to order for surprise.
    Should the cryptologic community have been more active in analysis and
    interpretation? Should we report conclusions? When Safford read the bomb plot message,
    he wrote a report for Kimmel containing analytical conclusions and a blunt warning
    about possible attack. In an epic battle among Turner, the intelligence professionals, and
    Naval communicators, the effort was squashed, and the message was never sent. The
    issue haunts us today as it did then and has never been completely resolved.​

    Yeah but how do you cashier Short for getting his planes destroyed on the ground and then give MacArthur a pass when he has the same thing transpire except he had access to "Magic" and had a nine hour heads up that Japan had attacked Pearl Harbor?
    My personal opinion is that Kimmel and Short were convinced to postpone a full hearing on their culpability for the good of the nation and the war effort. Had they relieved Emperor MacArthur, his ego was such he wouldn't have fallen on his sword for the good of the country, but would have tried to take the leadership in Washington down with him.
     
  3. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    When I can breath again I'll revisit this, it's going to make me grumble a lot. Short answer, however, is that Kimmel knew war was coming and nothing DC could have told him would have enhanced that. The Teikoku Seifu no Taibei Tsucho Oboegak 14th part didn't declare war, it didn't break diplomatic relations, it contained no ultimatum. Why Kimmel would need to see it beyond me.
     
  4. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    It was JN-25.

    As for ship positions, the "bomb plot" was actually a way to keep the costs of telegrams down. It certainly wasn't used by the IJN when they came in for the attack, they had windows in their airplanes, they looked out and saw where the ships where.

    As for ship movements, we would have kept tabs on the Japanese the same way if we could, nice to know what ships aren't in port (meaning they could be out anywhere, of course.)

    AND Kimmel and Short received a WAR WARNING a week before the raid. They perked up for a day or two, then went back to peacetime business as usual.

    One thing in Kimme's favor, the whole reason we had two divisions of infantry and AAA, etc., out the wazoo there was because the Army was supposed to give the USN a safe harbor where we could stand down and take care of things we couldn't fix at sea, or get food and other supplies without half the crew manning the guns. Short's performance of that job was abysmal. He was supposed to be ready to use up his assets to protect the fleet's assets. If all his losses had been the price of no USN warships and no infrastructure destroyed at Pearl then he would have been stellar in his job, imnsho.

    And now back to the O2 tank.
     
  5. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Price is right on this...The "Bomb Plot" was transmitted using the low-level J-19 code, and later, the ship messages were in the even lower-grade PA-K2 code.


    Overall, I believe that the focal point has unfortunately shifted to what did Kimmel and Short not know. When it should be focused on what they did know, what they did with that knowledge, and what one knew, but did not tell the other. By looking deeper at these aspects the command failures of Kimmel and Short becoming more glaring.

    Don't even get me started on MacArthur...


    Problem is...That is also a strike against Kimmel. Short is expecting advance warning from the long-range air reconnaissance that the Navy was supposed to be flying. Except Short was never informed that the reconnaissance was not being flown. As a result the radar is only being used for training purposes, the Triple-A was in a woefully prepared state for immediate action, and a small number of fighters were kept in a state of advance readiness.
     
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  6. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Kimmel didn't have the planes to fly that recon. The Martin-Bellinger Report (joint Army-Navy assessment) made that clear, Kimmel and Short both read it. The only thing that stopped the Air Information Center from being up and running on the day was that the Public Works officer wouldn't turn it over to the air forces. So they had to keep "training" until they got a fully functional AIC. Short knew he didn't have long range recon. He knew that the AIC could remedy that somewhat, he didn't make it happen. Kimmel and Short met once a week. To play golf. "no shop talk"
     
  7. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Unfortunately, more shop talk is what was needed...Not less.
     
  8. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Neither Kimmel nor Short could give a coherent explanation of the interservice intelligence sharing structure and policies. The phrase "I assumed they were ..." crops up with distressing regularity from all parties questioned on this matter.
     
  9. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    Just putting this out there, so don't shoot the messenger.
    How much of what has been mentioned can also be assigned to the "We're America and no-one would dare attack us" mindset? Is there an element of that?
     
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  10. Terry D

    Terry D Well-Known Member

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    If they had won, they would have taken the credit. They lost, so they can take their share of the blame. If a commander can't do that, he is no commander.
     
  11. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Most certainly, it is reasonably well documented.

    Also, because it was beyond known Japanese Navy capabilities at the time. Japan had only begun experimenting with underway refueling, and then only with small warships.
     
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  12. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    AFAIK, that is the Navy way. As captain of a ship, you are responsible for all that occurs, even if you are sound asleep in the your cabin when the ship runs aground.
     
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  13. freebird

    freebird Member

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    The primary responsibility for the Air Force in the Philippines would be with Brereton, not Mac
     
  14. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    "Pearl Harbor is a FORTRESS!" Yeah...
     
  15. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Very true.
     
  16. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Except Mac was the one that was "Large and in Charge," and Brereton answered to Mac. The Far East Air Force was under Mac's command, it was Mac's responsibility, no matter which underling he put in command of it.
     
  17. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Anybody remember how long Brereton had to sit waiting to see Mac when he went to the Palace?
     
  18. freebird

    freebird Member

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    Was he assigned directly by Mac? Or by Washington.
    I have to disagree, a commander is always responsible for HIS forces, regardless of who is in command.
    So, yes, while Mac has some responsibility, it does not absolve Brereton


    True enough, but suppose Mac had keeled over dead on the morning of the 8th, does that mean that the FEAF should fall apart?

    I'm seeing a command failure in both men, but do you hold Brereton blameless?
     
  19. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Why would I do that?
     
  20. freebird

    freebird Member

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    I'm just curious to hear your opinion of Brereton's role, and how much of the blame does he deserve for the destruction of the PI air force
     

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