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Alternative History WWII "Documentary"

Discussion in 'What If - Other' started by trustyoursources, Mar 12, 2017.

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  1. Otto

    Otto Rested & Resupplied with MREs. Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    It's the Lance Armstrong part where I literally laughed out loud. Impressive work, and so close to other "alternate history" narratives out there it is very tough to identify as satire. I'm in awe.
     
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  2. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Your "Alternative Fact" is fiction...Walt Disney was not "put on ice", just the opposite, he was thrown into the fire - Cremated.


    1941 is too late in the war? How so?

    Fact is the gun saw little use, because it was intended to defeat the Maginot Line defenses, but France collapsed before the gun was completed. As Gustav's shells tended to bury themselves quite deep in the earth before exploding, the gun was relatively useless against unfortified targets - not to mention it's abysmal firing rate of one shell every 45 minutes. Gustav was used at Sevastopol and it's sister gun, Dora, saw little use at Stalingrad.


    Except the assassination attempt was in 1918, and Lenin suffered a debilitating stroke in 1922, a heart attack in 1923, and died in 1924. Six years is a long "not much later."


    Back in the 40s? Very very doubtful. Perhaps your "dude", or should I say "dudes" were William Martin and Bernon Mitchell, CIA cryptologists who defected to the Soviet Union - But, that was 1960, not 1940.

    Unfortunately, most Americans who defected to the USSR in the 1920s and 30s, quickly became disillusioned, and most of those fell victim to Stalin's purges in the late 30s.

    American airmen who spent time in the USSR, either through Operation Frantic or interned after bombing Japan were quite unimpressed with Soviet society.


    True story? Except for the date. Trotsky went into exile in 1929, First to Turkey, then France, next was Norway, before finally arriving in Mexico in 1937.

    Note the date...1937.


    He is saying that if the Soviet Army is fighting on or in the German capital, the Soviets are not on "the brink of defeat," nut they are on "the brink of victory." If the Soviet Army was truly on the "brink of defeat," they would be fighting in Moscow, not Berlin.


    Dude...You have gotten near about all the dates wrong...Despite purportedly having invested "days" building this cockup.


    Would that not make it "ahistorical fiction" then...

    Kennedy was not shot during World War II...

    Seeing as there was no Korea during World War II - it was part of the Japanese Empire and called "Nippon Tōchi-jidai no Chōsen."
    North and South Korea were a post-World War II development after the surrender of Japan, and the carving up of her Empire.
    Thus, by your logic, Kennedy would have been shot during the Korean War.

    Again, there was no Korea during World War II...By your logic, Reagan was shot during the Korean War.

    All Reagan did was dream up "Star Wars", others made it happen...And Von Braun was dead for a few years before Reagan became President.

    I believe this statement falls under the heading of "No duh!"

    You were trying to save time...Yet, spent days concocting this cockup.
    HINT - Next time...Don't save time, as your not saving any time, your only wasting our time.

    It's also true that they were "nuked" by a bomb delivered by an aircraft.
    It's also true that no one was certain the detonators to Little Boy would work as advertised...Little Boy's detonators failed in the last test before Hiroshima.
    no one would have suggested putting Little boy on an untried, unproven ICBM, when well proven delivery systems were out there for use.

    Except World War II is not the same as the Cold War...Even the Cold War could be considered a misnomer as, more often than not it was quite hot.

    Even if Trotsky survived the assassination...The autopsy would have killed him.

    The Heart Attack gun used a poison dart, and would be discovered during autopsy. IIRC, it allowed the assassin to escape without detection.
     
  3. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    It does have a beauty to it...But, only if the storyteller is a small child.

    While reading through the OPs responses, I was reminded of my 3-year-old nephews telling stories that were conglomerations of several stories they had heard before. In which case my response would be "Awww, this is so cute."

    However, if the storyteller is someone other than a small child, my response would be "What drugs have you taken?" or else, "Have you taken your drugs lately?"


    But, then again, I have never been one for the artsy-fartsy stuff.
     
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  4. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Except for the fact that the Korean war started after WW2, so wasn't part of it, and 4 of the 5 major players didn't exist at the end of WWII.
    ???Seriously???? How old are you? Do you have any idea what the word "history" actually means? or are you just a troll as suggested?
    You are asking for proof that someone didn't re-animate a Lenin's corpse? You are certainly proving that "anyone can just make claims".
    Ah, now I know why you are having so much trouble with historical facts. There's a reading comprehension issue. Let me parse it out for you. Trotsky was dead before WWII started. He may have lead the Red Army at some point prior to that but he most certainly wasn't doing an El Cid in 41 or there after.

    Not much point in going on ...
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2017
  5. George Patton

    George Patton Canadian Refugee

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    Please don't ban this fellow. The entertainment value is unrivaled. I'd gladly pay admission for a front row seat to his show - this whole thing is just THAT good!
     
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  6. George Patton

    George Patton Canadian Refugee

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    The Korean Conflict is not WW2.

    That speaks for itself.

    "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"

    "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"

    "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"

    You failed miserably at that attempt.

    Nope.

    Nope.

    "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"

    Fixed it for you.

    I'm saying you have no idea what you're talking about.

    Yes. AFTER the war.

    It did make me burst out laughing. Well done.

    Is this correct by the same logic that since FDR was JFK's predeccessor, this means that JFK was POTUS in 1941?

    But but but.... I have it on tape! Its a BetaMax. I even have the "After the credit" scene which shows Hitler hamming it up for the cameras. Reagan and the chimpanzee make a guess appearance.

    Not really. You're just a nitwit.

    Have you hear of Google? Enlighten yourself.

    Wrong. Are you even aware of what IBM was manufacturing at the time? Data machines. You know, machines that process data. IBM was not responsible for killing the Jews, nor was IBM machinery instrumental to killing the Jews, nor was there no substitute available.

    "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"

    "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"

    Anne frankly, he was not amused by the rejection.

    "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"

    But without satellite communications, how could Otto Skorzeny have ordered the famous commando raid on the Eiffel tower in order to set it up as a intergalactic beacon to communicate with the lizard people from the galaxy Xereon?!??! Or how could Hitler have issued the famous order of "schnitzel for breakfast, macht schnell!" from his secret lair under the Antarctic ice?
     
  7. George Patton

    George Patton Canadian Refugee

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    Nope.

    Well you may well be correct. I am unfamiliar with "Fact Walt Disney". You should have been more clear on who you were referring to. Silly me, I was under the impression the whole time that you were talking about "Walt Disney"!

    It is documented that Gustav was used to shell the secret Japanese space port in the Marianas Islands. It was loaded onto a U-Boat. Unfortunately for the crew, they were unaware that Godzilla was known to frequent the area and met an untimely demise after the first firing.

    Oh, it's wrong alright.

    "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"

    I can vouch for his pepper enchiladas and curros. I hear he made a real killer of a taco bowl too.

    Here's the abridged version: "you are wrong".

    You've gotten more than a date wrong.

    See above

    See above.

    "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"

    Korean is not WW2. WW2 is not Korea. Korea didn't even exist in WW2. "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"

    See above.

    Please show me where the rocket's hood is located. I'd really like to drop a supercharged V8 into one. Rocket fuel is overrated...

    What is your strong suit? I admit you get full marks for comedic film making.

    No. It was definitely Heinrich Sickleheimerschultzengruber. The inclusion of a Nazi-Fascist was a condition of the Von Braun exchange, skillfully negotiated by Fact Walt Disney.

    But what about the shelling of the Japanese space port and correlated plotline of the world's most underwatched Godzilla film "Mechagodzilla Vs. Untersee Nazi Fascists"?!?!

    Every day the entire earth is "nuked" [read: "irradiated"] from outer space.

    Who - other than yourself - agrees with you?

    "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"
     
  8. KJ Jr

    KJ Jr Well-Known Member Patron  

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    Um...details are very, very important.
     
  9. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Indeed. If one wants to come to reasonable conclusions the facts (details) are the very foundation of ones proposal. You won't get a very sound structure if you try to use a few blades of grass as a foundation. One can step back and try to understand the "big picture" once one has a good grasp on the details but when those are missing or even worse wrong the "big picture" one gets is at best an abstract piece of art rather than a picture of reality.
     
  10. KJ Jr

    KJ Jr Well-Known Member Patron  

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    I don't know if I'm concerned, surprised or amused that this thread is 3 pages long, lol.
     
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  11. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Staff Member Patron  

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    Most of the thread is trying to debunk the OP's theory. There is just so much wrong that it takes three pages to deal with it. Dates and occurrences are important to a historian. Year off can make all the difference, since it throws other events in a different light. Real counter-factual history at least is somewhat grounded in reality. It's part of the reason I avoid "what if's". I much prefer the real thing.
     
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  12. KJ Jr

    KJ Jr Well-Known Member Patron  

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    Maybe the best thing about the thread is the collaborative historical analysis used for counter points. Very refreshing.

    I agree Lou, I'd rather live in reality and save what ifs for Hollywood. At least I can shut it off.
     
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  13. trustyoursources

    trustyoursources Member

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    I am 26 and only marijuana.
     
  14. trustyoursources

    trustyoursources Member

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    Your "Alternative Fact" is fiction...Walt Disney was not "put on ice", just the opposite, he was thrown into the fire - Cremated.

    Right again official story is cremation yet there is a solid possibility this was an easy made lie. There are a lot of sources claiming he was in fact frozen cryogenically.

    1941 is too late in the war? How so?

    Fact is the gun saw little use, because it was intended to defeat the Maginot Line defenses, but France collapsed before the gun was completed. As Gustav's shells tended to bury themselves quite deep in the earth before exploding, the gun was relatively useless against unfortified targets - not to mention it's abysmal firing rate of one shell every 45 minutes. Gustav was used at Sevastopol and it's sister gun, Dora, saw little use at Stalingrad.

    Yeah the gun was never used to shoot down the US moon mission it ultimately failed in its primary objective.

    Except the assassination attempt was in 1918, and Lenin suffered a debilitating stroke in 1922, a heart attack in 1923, and died in 1924. Six years is a long "not much later."

    Every time I get caught up in dates things just seem to make me out the liar since there are 365 days in a year and so many years are involved its just way to much nit picky info to try to get through to prove which of the million dates anything happened on. I looked into it now and there are like 4 different calendars out there the Roman, Jewish, Chinese, Mayan, etc so we will not get any where with this because who know how anyone came up with any given date really.

    Back in the 40s? Very very doubtful. Perhaps your "dude", or should I say "dudes" were William Martin and Bernon Mitchell, CIA cryptologists who defected to the Soviet Union - But, that was 1960, not 1940.

    Again idk which calendar you are using lets move on from this date thing.

    Unfortunately, most Americans who defected to the USSR in the 1920s and 30s, quickly became disillusioned, and most of those fell victim to Stalin's purges in the late 30s.

    More dates do you have any other issues with my work other then dates?

    American airmen who spent time in the USSR, either through Operation Frantic or interned after bombing Japan were quite unimpressed with Soviet society.

    Was this part of the documentary?

    True story? Except for the date. Trotsky went into exile in 1929, First to Turkey, then France, next was Norway, before finally arriving in Mexico in 1937.

    Note the date...1937.

    No more dates. Not my strong suit.

    He is saying that if the Soviet Army is fighting on or in the German capital, the Soviets are not on "the brink of defeat," nut they are on "the brink of victory." If the Soviet Army was truly on the "brink of defeat," they would be fighting in Moscow, not Berlin.

    I meant the Red Army in St. Petersburg were on the brink of defeat and the whole of the Red Army would have been on the brink is St. Petersburg fell.

    Dude...You have gotten near about all the dates wrong...Despite purportedly having invested "days" building this cockup.

    Yeah I dont focus much on man made ideas like dates because there are so many variant theories on what todays or any other dates date is. I mean some cultures cant even agree on how many months there are.

    Would that not make it "ahistorical fiction" then...

    No.

    Kennedy was not shot during World War II...

    Seeing as there was no Korea during World War II - it was part of the Japanese Empire and called "Nippon Tōchi-jidai no Chōsen."
    North and South Korea were a post-World War II development after the surrender of Japan, and the carving up of her Empire.
    Thus, by your logic, Kennedy would have been shot during the Korean War.

    It may have been names something else but even you admit it existed.

    Again, there was no Korea during World War II...By your logic, Reagan was shot during the Korean War.

    I do not know much about the Readan assassination attempt but yeah pretty much everything since JFK has been world war II events.

    All Reagan did was dream up "Star Wars", others made it happen...And Von Braun was dead for a few years before Reagan became President.

    Yeah he imagineered it.

    I believe this statement falls under the heading of "No duh!"

    You were trying to save time...Yet, spent days concocting this cockup.
    HINT - Next time...Don't save time, as your not saving any time, your only wasting our time.

    Dates....

    It's also true that they were "nuked" by a bomb delivered by an aircraft.
    It's also true that no one was certain the detonators to Little Boy would work as advertised...Little Boy's detonators failed in the last test before Hiroshima.
    no one would have suggested putting Little boy on an untried, unproven ICBM, when well proven delivery systems were out there for use.

    I also do not think kids were involved I think everyone serving on the moon base was an adult.

    Except World War II is not the same as the Cold War...Even the Cold War could be considered a misnomer as, more often than not it was quite hot.

    My main argument in my work is that they are the same war but to reach this conclusion you must believe the rest of my points.

    Even if Trotsky survived the assassination...The autopsy would have killed him.

    If he survived the assassination there would have been no legit autopsy. Just make up and pics for Stalin to be tricked by.

    The Heart Attack gun used a poison dart, and would be discovered during autopsy. IIRC, it allowed the assassin to escape without detection.

    Not if Trotski spent the lots of alone time he had with Stalin's body to cover it up with foundation or something.
     
  15. KJ Jr

    KJ Jr Well-Known Member Patron  

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    Hmmmm...:)
     
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  16. trustyoursources

    trustyoursources Member

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    The truth is some parts of WW II needed spicing up to make a better film. Do you want to live in a world that knows nothing cause they were too bored to pay attention to boring old documentary or would you rather people flock to my master work even if there is a couple of slight adjustments for entertainment value?
     
  17. trustyoursources

    trustyoursources Member

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    Lets agree to disagree friend
     
  18. trustyoursources

    trustyoursources Member

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    My point is that sometimes people lose the real message if they narrow their focus. Here is a metaphor for what I mean. Imagine you are reading Lenin's 52 tombs of combined writings. Instead of examining them all you focus on only staring at the first letter of the first word on the cover. Years and years into your study you will be able to tell me anything and everything about that letter but nothing about Lenin. Does that make any sense?
     
  19. KJ Jr

    KJ Jr Well-Known Member Patron  

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    Well...in this case, I'm sorry I can't...:eek:lolol

    (Ok I caught my breath)

    This is historical record, not a letter in the alphabet. Details support the main ideas and conclusions one can draw from. These details, or facts, are studied, researched and analyzed to ascertain factually based opinions. Do I take everything at face value, no. While researching my book I am very careful to cite numerous sources to support my thesis. There are no facts to your argument, period.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2017
  20. trustyoursources

    trustyoursources Member

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    Who is Ike?
    That speaks for itself.

    Seriously who is he I am a student of history I honestly want to know. I cant engage intelligently without knowing the reference/shout out.


    Stalin took power after Lenin whose rule was shortened by Fanny Kaplan this is all fact. What proof do you offer that this is not so present your evidence. Anyone can just make claims.
    "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"

    Sounds like you can't disprove that Stalin Succeeded Lenin and that Fanny Kaplan tried to kill Lenin. So once again what is the issue with these claims?


    Trotski was the leader of the Red Army. Again where are your facts he did not lead the Red Army?
    "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"

    Trotski at one point lead the Red Army anyone here will back me up. Seriously ask anyone with any knowledge of Trotski.


    Stalin did advise Lenin. I do not know what about but he succeeded him and they knew each other for a long time obviously they were close and discussed politics I can't honestly imagine Lenin discussing anything other then politics with anyone, maybe politics and sex, Lenin was a notorious RSFSR playboy.
    "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"

    Sounds like this claim also turned out to hard to disprove.


    Ok so this is honestly one of the main points I was trying to make with my documentary. The main stream theory is that these were separate events and that the Allies won and that the Axis of Evil lost. See I believe that these two wars were one big war and how were the nukes launched without the space race think about it. France and England were allies did they win, no they were wrecked, Russia snow and brim stone, America on its way to global corporate wealth and enterprise. America won everyone else lost. We are number one.
    You failed miserably at that attempt.

    Its hard to lead a paradigm shift in society perhaps in due time it will make sense.


    Ok so obliviously i did not mean literally fought in outer space I do not believe a gun would even work in outer space. But getting to the moon was what determined who won the war because of nuclear capabilities.
    Nope.

    YUP


    With the Red Army they almost lost but then winter and reinforcements and they won. It was the most decisive battle in the entire war. Also its St. Petersburg.
    Nope.

    YUP


    Again St. Petersburg and yeah totally legit he hacked phones and listened to all sorts of peoples conversations. Look up Stalin and wire taps.
    "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Bukharin one of Stalins the wire tappers.


    Ok so the V2 rocket wasn't the rocket that got us to the moon nor space but it was decisive in getting us to both I dont think anyone would despute that. Not everything is meant to be taken literally my work has great nuisance.
    Fixed it for you.

    Thanks <3

    Im not sure what the issue is that you are bringing up here I'm honestly not sure how to respond sorry. Feel free to break it down for me I will read and respond.
    I'm saying you have no idea what you're talking about.

    I do though, I have a lot of ideas that I talk about.


    This is not a popularly known fact but believe it or not the United States employed a lot of Nazi scientists.
    Yes. AFTER the war.

    After world war I during world war II yeah.


    I will admit there I was using a little imagination to spice things up. But I believe it was crucial to keep viewers interest in the story.
    It did make me burst out laughing. Well done.

    Thanks Im glad it was a well employed tactic.


    Their predecessor.
    Is this correct by the same logic that since FDR was JFK's predeccessor, this means that JFK was POTUS in 1941?

    FDR is not part of this documentary.


    This wasn't televised and Disney might not have been there but IBM and Coca Cola sure was.
    But but but.... I have it on tape! Its a BetaMax. I even have the "After the credit" scene which shows Hitler hamming it up for the cameras. Reagan and the chimpanzee make a guess appearance.

    If such footage existed it wouldve been super helpful to my case.


    Now you are nit picking.
    Not really. You're just a nitwit.

    Tear*


    Than why?
    Have you hear of Google? Enlighten yourself.

    What?


    My documentary did not claim that. Only claimed IBM machines were a go to solution for the Nazi Death machine in some cases.
    Wrong. Are you even aware of what IBM was manufacturing at the time? Data machines. You know, machines that process data. IBM was not responsible for killing the Jews, nor was IBM machinery instrumental to killing the Jews, nor was there no substitute available.

    Again I never claimed that IBM machines were directly responsible or instrumental in the Death Machine. I simply stated that they were used as one of the tech solutions of the death machine. This is an undisputed fact Nazi's used IBM machines. Just trying to stick to the facts folks.


    Von Braun and Disney were associates and did in fact work together.
    "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"

    Here is a film of Wernher made by Disney how do you disprove this?


    Again not well known about but technology existed back then to make this hypothetically possible.
    "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"

    I forget which hypothetical I was talking about here.


    I bet he was.
    Anne frankly, he was not amused by the rejection.

    Not sure what this is about.


    Yeah headed by Wernher Von Braun who was developing the V2 rocket a predecessor to the rockets that took us to the moon.
    "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"

    Wernher and his work got us to the moon. Do you disagree?


    I assure you there was absolutely no way that satellite communications were a thing during Lenins life time. Sputnik the very first satelite was launches after he died.
    But without satellite communications, how could Otto Skorzeny have ordered the famous commando raid on the Eiffel tower in order to set it up as a intergalactic beacon to communicate with the lizard people from the galaxy Xereon?!??! Or how could Hitler have issued the famous order of "schnitzel for breakfast, macht schnell!" from his secret lair under the Antarctic ice?

    Dude this might be the next film!
     

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