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American Invasion

Discussion in 'What If - Other' started by Hawkerace, May 30, 2007.

  1. ickysdad

    ickysdad Member

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    Yep and looking at what the Union went through in invading the South during the ACW despite all it's manpower/resources advantages & having control of the sea can you imagine what an inferior economically/resource wise country without complete control of the sea would go through?
     
  2. A-58

    A-58 Cool Dude

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    Damn Yankees....
     
  3. USMC

    USMC Member

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    It is still highly unlikely that the Germans could accomplish such a naval feat.

    The list of Kriegsmarine ships includes all ships commissioned into the Kriegsmarine, the German navy of the Third Reich period, during its existence from 1935 to the conclusion of World War II in 1945.
    See the list of naval ships of Germany for ships in German service throughout the country's history.
    This transport-related list is incomplete; you can help by expanding it.
    [edit] Capital Ships

    [edit] Battleships/Schlachtschiff

    [edit] Pre-Dreadnoughts/Linienschiffe

    [edit] Heavy cruisers/Schwere Kreuzer

    [edit] Light cruisers/Leichte Kreuzer

    [edit] Destroyers and Torpedo boats

    [edit] Destroyers/Zerstörer

    Main article: German World War II destroyers
    • Zerstörer/Typ 1934 (3,155 tons, 5 × 127 mm guns)
      • Z1 Leberecht Maas 1937
      • Z2 Georg Thiele 1937
      • Z3 Max Schultz 1937
      • Z4 Richard Beitzen 1937
    • Zerstörer/Typ 1934 A
      • Z5 Paul Jacobi
      • Z6 Theodor Riedel
      • Z7 Hermann Schoemann
      • Z8 Bruno Heinemann
      • Z9 Wolfgang Zenker
      • Z10 Hans Lody
      • Z11 Bernd von Arnim
      • Z12 Erich Giese
      • Z13 Erich Koellner
      • Z14 Friedrich Ihn
      • Z15 Erich Steinbrinck
      • Z16 Friedrich Eckoldt
    • Zerstörer/Typ 1936
      • Z17 Diether von Roeder
      • Z18 Hans Lüdemann
      • Z19 Hermann Künne
      • Z20 Karl Galster
      • Z21 Wilhelm Heidkamp
      • Z22 Anton Schmitt
    • Zerstörer/Typ 1936 A(Narvik)
      • Z23 through Z30
    • Zerstörer/Typ 1936 A (Mob)
      • Z31 through Z34
      • Z37 through Z39
    • Zerstörer/Typ 1936 B
      • Z35 through Z36
      • Z43 through Z45
    [edit] Torpedo boats/Flottentorpedoboot

    [edit] Auxiliary cruisers/Hilfskreuzer

    [edit] Mine Warfare Craft

    [edit] Minelayers/Minenleger

    • Tannenberg 1935 (5,500 tons, 3 x 150mm guns, 460 mines)
    • Brandenburg 1936 (3,900 tons, 3 x 105mm guns, 250 mines)
    • Lothringen 1941 (2,000 tons, 2 x 88mm guns, 200 mines)
    • Niedersachsen 1934 (1,800 tons, 2 x 105mm guns, 260 mines
    • Drache 1924 (1,800 tons, 2 x 88mm guns, 120 mines)
    • Brummer 1940 (3 × 10.5 cm guns, 2 × 3.7 cm anti-aircraft guns, 10 × 2 cm anti-aircraft guns, 4 × 46 cm torpedo tubes, 280 mines)
    • Oldenburg 1934 (1,200 tons, 2 x 88mm guns, 145 mines
    • Kamerun 1939 (370 tons, 2 x 88mm guns, 100 mines)
    • Togo 1939 (370 tons, 2 x 88mm guns, 100 mines)
    • Kiebitz 1943
    [edit] Pathmakers/Sperrbrecher

    • Sperrbrecher 1 - Sperrbrecher 100 (5,000 tons, 2 x 88mm guns)
    [edit] Minesweepers/Minensuchboot

    • M1935 class (875 tons, 2 x 105mm guns)
      • M1 - M69
    • M1940 class (775 tons, 1 x 105mm gun)
      • M70 - M196
    • M1943 class (825 tons, 2 x 105mm guns)
      • M197 - M214
    [edit] R Boats/Räumboote

    • R1 class 1929 (60 tons, 1 x 37mm gun, 6 mines
      • R1 - R16
    • R17 class 1934 (115 tons, 1 x 37mm gun, 12 mines)
      • R17 - R24
    • R25 class 1938 (110 tons, 1 x 37mm gun, 12 mines)
      • R25 - R40
    • R41 class 1939 (125 tons, 1 x 37mm gun, 12 mines)
      • R41 - R129
    • R130 class 1940 (150 tons, 1 x 37mm gun, 12 mines)
      • R130 - R150
    • R151 class 1940 (125 tons, 1 x 37mm gun, 12 mines)
      • R151 - R217
    • R218 class 1942 (140 tons, 1 x 37mm gun, 16 mines)
      • R218 - R300
    • R301 class 1942 (160 tons, 1 x 88mm gun, 16 mines, 2 torpedo tubes)
      • R301 - R312
    [edit] Mine-hunters/Küstenminenleger

    • KM1 - KM36
    [edit] Small craft

    [edit] E Boats/Schnellboot

    • S-1 class (50 tons, 1 x 20mm gun, 2 torpedo tubes)
      • S1 - S25
    • S-26 class (75 tons, 1 x 20mm gun, 2 torpedo tubes)
      • S26 - S29
    • S-30 class (80 tons, 1 x 20mm gun, 2 torpedo tubes)
      • S30 - S37
    • S-38 class (80 tons, 1 x 20mm gun, 2 torpedo tubes)
      • S38 - S60
    • S-38b class (90 tons, 2 x 20mm guns, 2 torpedo tubes)
      • S61 - S99
    • S-100 class (100 tons, 1 x 37mm gun, 2 torpedo tubes)
      • S100 - S150
    • S-151 class (100 tons, 1 x 37mm gun, 2 torpedo tubes)
      • S151 - S205
    [edit] U-boats/Unterseeboote

    [edit] Training subs

    [edit] Coastal subs

    [edit] Ocean-going subs

    • Type VIIA Unterseeboote
      • U27 through U36
    • Type VIIB Unterseeboote
      • U45 through U55
      • U73 through U76
      • U83 through U87
      • U99 through U102
    • Type VIIC Unterseeboote
      • U69 through U72
      • U77 through U82
      • U88 through U98
      • U132 through U136
      • U201 through U212
      • U221 through U232
      • U235 through U291
      • U301 through U316
      • U331 through U394
      • U396 through U458
      • U465 through U486
      • U551 through U683
      • U701 through U722
      • U731 through U768
      • U771 through U779
      • U821 through U822
      • U825 and U826
      • U901 through U907
      • U921 through U928
      • U951 through U994
      • U1051 through U1058
      • U1101 and U1102
      • U1131 and U1132
      • U1161 and U1162
      • U1191 through U1210
    • Type VIIC 41 Unterseeboote
      • U292 through U300
      • U317 through U328
      • U827 and U828
      • U929 and U930
      • U995 through U1010
      • U1013 through U1025
      • U1063 through U1065
      • U1103 through U1110
      • U1163 through U1172
      • U1271 through U1279
      • U1301 through U1308
    • Type IXA Unterseeboote
      • U37 through U44
    • Type IXB Unterseeboote
      • U64 and U65
      • U103 through U111
      • U122 through U124
    • Type IXC Unterseeboote
      • U66 through U68
      • U125 through U131
      • U153 through U166
      • U171 through U176
      • U501 through U524
    • Type IXC 40 Unterseeboote
      • U167 through U170
      • U183 through U194
      • U525 through U550
      • U801 through U806
      • U841 through U846
      • U853 through U858
      • U877 through U899
      • U1221 through U1235
    • Type IXD Unterseeboote
      • U177 through U182
      • U195 through U200
      • U847 through U852
      • U859 through U864
      • U871 through U876
    [edit] Minelaying subs

    [edit] Supply subs

    [edit] Electric boats

    [edit] Midget Submarines

    • Seehund (17 tons, 2 x torpedoes)
      • 138 commissioned
    • Hecht (Training)
      • 53 commissioned
    • Biber (6.5 tons, 2 x torpedoes)
      • 324 commissioned
    • Molch (11 tons, 2 x torpedoes)
      • 393 commissioned
    • Delphin (Prototype)
      • 3 commissioned
    • Seeteufel (Prototype)
      • 1 commissioned
    • Schwertwal (Prototype)
      • 1 commissioned
    [edit] Human Torpedoes

    • Neger (1 x torpedo)
      • 200 commissioned
    • Marder (3 tons, 1 x torpedo)
      • 500 commissioned
    • Hai (Prototype)
      • 1 commissioned
    [edit] Auxiliary ships

    [edit] Troop Ships

    [edit] Artillery Training Ships/Artillerieschulschiffe

    [edit] Radio-Controlled Targets

    [edit] Sail Training Ships/Segelschulschiffe

    [edit] Floating AA Batteries/Schwimmende Flakbatterien

    [edit] Escorts/Flottenbegleiter

    • F class (700 tons, 2 x 105mm guns)
      • F1 - F10
    [edit] Gunboats/Leichte Schnellboote

    • LS1 - LS12
    [edit] Captured foreign warships

    A significant number of foreign warships were captured and recommissioned into the Kriegsmarine. Some were never completted.
    [edit] Unfinished Ships

    [edit] Aircraft carriers

    [edit] Heavy cruisers

    • Seydlitz, (uncompleted, intended for conversion into light aircraft carrier, but never completed)
    • Lützow, (sold uncompleted to Soviet Union in 1939)
    [edit] Destroyers

    [edit] Torpedo boat

    And a multitude of other ships: Escorts, Gunboats, Landing Crafts, Fleet Tenders, AA Batteries, Training Ships, Auxiliary Ships, Patrol Boats, Minelayers, Mine Hunters, Fast Torpedo Attack Boats (E-Boats) and some more.


    This is almost the entire KM. Notice the number of surface vessels. There is no way that the KM would be able to transport a sizeable fighting force across the atlantic.
     
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  4. urqh

    urqh Tea drinking surrender monkey

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    cheers redcoat...redcoats my long lost twin brothers cousin twice removed by the way .
     
  5. USMC

    USMC Member

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    Bottom line.....An invasion would be irrational and logidtically improbable.
     
  6. Vladd

    Vladd Member

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    Please don't fall into the trap of calling the LRDG the SAS they were separate units in fact the LRDG sometimes acted as guides for ths SAS, I believe that LRDG used to get annoyed at the SAS getting credit for their actions.
     
  7. MastahCheef117

    MastahCheef117 Member

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    As the OP said this is pretty impossible, I'd think that the Kriegsmarine would take Iceland, and would use that as a springboard to attack Maine, Massachusetts, and maybe New Brunscwick and/or Nova Scotia. Also, they might try to entice Mexico into the fight the same way the did in WWI a-la the Zimmerman telegram.
     
  8. USMC

    USMC Member

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    With how many men?? How would they get them there??? The Royal Navy surely wouldn't like that. Plus, the Kriegsmarine simply did not have the transport or logistical capacity to land a massive force.
     
  9. A-58

    A-58 Cool Dude

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    Nor the capability to maintain the landing forces IF they got ashore. As if the USN would stand idly by as well. The KM was over-stretched and beat up pretty bad in the Norweigian Campaign. They couldn't get to Iceland (or any farther) if they wanted to.
     
  10. T. A. Gardner

    T. A. Gardner Genuine Chief

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    I think the US alone built more destroyers than the Germans had surface ships. They damn near built more escort carriers than the Germans had surface ships. The US has more battleships by 1943 than the Germans have ships larger than a destroyer. The US alone built more cruisers than the Germans have destroyers. The initial US plan for war production on destroyer escorts was to build 300. If you count all US carrier production including those given to other countries the total is over 100 ships.

    Then you could almost certainly count on the USAAF and Navy shore based squadrons working over the invasion fleet well out to sea on a daily basis. If this were after about 1943 I would include not just day but night attacks by torpedo planes in particular. US submarines would add to the carnage. Then the Germans still have to deal with the US Navy and some of the heaviest coast defenses in the world. The problem with the later is the Germans would be working blind. Where would their intelligence and reconnissance on US dispositions come from?

    That is the reality of what the Germans would face.
     
  11. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

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    I think the "Navy" built and put to sea more Destryers and Escort Carriers than the Germans did Tigers and TigerII's
     
  12. A-58

    A-58 Cool Dude

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    That's a fair comparison, probably closer to the truth as well and easily understood to those who have a hard time accepting the truth over fantasy.
     
  13. urqh

    urqh Tea drinking surrender monkey

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    So thats that then..another one put to bed. jerry couldnt invade usa or even uk..and do you know what...they didnt...Ilike it when the actual facts play out over the fantasy...now could russia invade america in 1939?? any takers...sorry its the drugs..the green ones i think.
     
  14. belasar

    belasar Court Jester

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    Good point, if Sealion was unfeasable how are they getting over the pond!
     
  15. USMCPrice

    USMCPrice Idiot at Large

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    Ah yes Jughead but you fail to realize that I belong to an exclusive collectors club and we know that the Tiger and TigerII had superior optics and turret traverse rate to the American destroyer. I have spoken with a number of fat, greasy living historians that operate restored versions of these two vehicles and they assure me that a Fletcher would be no match to a Tiger in head to head combat. The Fletcher operates in a damp environment and it's lack of nitrogen purging and AR coating of it's optics would cause them to fog up, rendering them useless against our Tiger. I also have it on good authority that due to the use of erosive propellants the 5"/38 gun mounted on the Fletcher was only good for at most 100 rounds, before it was worn out. I myself once destroyed a captured, suburban potato cannon when I was in the Boy Scouts, so I know it's true.
     
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  16. A-58

    A-58 Cool Dude

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    Yes, but a 1942 Fletcher class destroyer had five 5"/38 gun turrets to work with, so that makes 500 rounds available in a worse case scenario. And if the Tiger was on the beach, close to the water line, the DD could pummell the Tiger(s) with the deck guns while manouvering for a torpedo run. The Fletchers also had 10 21" torpedo tubes (2X5) in case the Tiger got TOO close to the waterline. It's always easy for the novices and what-iffers to cherry pick the facts to make their fantasy seem real.
     
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  17. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Staff Member Patron  

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    Ahhh, Price. Do I detect the faintest hint of sarcasm in your answer?
     
  18. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    You boys ain't even close to right.

    Don't forget to take your medications.
     
  19. T. A. Gardner

    T. A. Gardner Genuine Chief

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    Another thing to think about: The US population has more motor vehicles and small arms than the whole German army..... Could be a minor problem there......
     
  20. T. A. Gardner

    T. A. Gardner Genuine Chief

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    Yea, sure. Let's see who wins that match with the firing starting at 10,000 yards. Who knows? If the Tiger is close to the beach maybe the Fletcher can put a torpedo or two into it.....
     

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