An open letter to all re-enactors of Waffen SS units

Hmm, I meant in a WW2 context, Piers.

 

Well it that case perhaps the Japs too? They certainly had a persecution of POWs...

Just pointing out that genocide seems to be a human condition that has gone on for centuries but the cold industrialisation of the Nazi's and the sheer numbers they 'processed' sets them apart.

 

Talk about setting the cat amongst the pigeons !

When I started this thread and gave it the title “Open letter to all re-enactors of Waffen SS Units” I was genuinely seeking an honest response from what I must have thought would be a very small percentage of second/third generation of right wing sympathisers.

As my open letter suggested, I was intrigued to know why a post war generation would want to, if I can be very vulgar, urinate on the graves of the countless millions who had perished in WW2 as the direct result of a party of men led by Adolph Hitler.

Now, some many responses later I have certainly been given my answer and what a wide range of opinion it covered.

In this short but, I hope, representative selection I show below, I have left out the poster’s names. The actual postings can soon be found if you want full chapter & verse and I also apologise for the drastic curtailing of the posts

Early on it was suggested “The only benefit I see is that a 'loyal opposition' is needed, one can't all be Cops, some have to be Robbers” and “I personally would have no trouble getting into a german uniform for a WWII airsoft game tough I don't think I could go to an SS type unit” Then came “Most do wear Waffen SS Uniforms because it looks cool”
Then there were postings such as “I would wear any uniform of any nation from any conflict whether it was German Wehrmact, Luftwaffe or even the SS, but purely from a reenactors point of view, how do you illiustrate a realistic and historical Waffen SS tank travelling down a road without wearing there uniforms? I am in no way defending the SS or the Nazis but it is our history, a piece of black history, but history none the less, and to show it correctly it must be shown exactly right, but not to glorify the SS troops but simply display they way they were, I have read many references of the fighting spirit of the Waffen SS and there ability to hold the allies advances over the Wehrmact, but they are continous over shadowed by those units that simply shamed Germany.”
Some posts that implied that there were no political inferences to be drawn by the wearing of SS uniforms “i would not mind wearing an ss uniform ( though i like the soviet nkvd that is beatiful) cause im quite aware of my political ideologies. Wearing a uniform of a waffern is not going to turn me more or less fascist (i hate fascism )”
One particularly informative post from an “ex” reenactor said:
“Interesting thread and good question, I USED to re-enact the Waffen SS, I could maybe explain a few of my reasons and perhapse explain a little of the context in which I a) got into it and b) stopped. I started when I was a bit younger, 15 ish, and wanted a re-enactment group that I could join fairly realistically because of my age. The first one I came across was a group who re-enacted the 12th SS PzDiv, since they wouldn't let me join until I was 16 I started researching the unit and by the time I joined I had read more about the subject than most of the long standing members (I believe I was the only one for example who was aware that there was no one under 18 in the division when it went into combat for the first time, so the stories of 16 year old kids fighting were bunk, at least early on).”

One poster made his point about “accusing everybody” by saying “ Sir, You do state facts but can we really accuse a whole nation of voting 100% for one party? Also, the Party, like the communist revolution, turned evil as time went by. So can we be 100% sure that the German people knew what was going to happen.
I am not defending what the Nazis did though it may sound like it. I am glad for the contribution of all involved (like yourself) in getting rid of such evil. What I am against is accusing 'everybody'. “Despite the seriousness of the subject I even found some laughable irony in some of the postings.
For instance: ”I read Ron's post and of course he is bias, but considering his background this is not surprising, nor, considering the events of WWII, would I hold it against him”
“he is bias ?” Too bloody right I am!
Five years of my life lost for ever….. the loss of a much loved brother and many cousins…… countless million slaughtered, of all religions, all over the world.
Bias indeed !

Finally, on an entirely separate thread headed “Where would YOU serve in WW2” that somehow or other got linked to my “Open letter” thread there appeared this gem.
“I have a giant portrait of Fuhrer Adolf Hitler on my living room wall and flanked by the Nazi Party Standard and War Ensign, i am proud of them. But having said that i am a proud Australian of German/Danish decent.”
After some meandering I have finally reached the point of this posting.

You need to know that in June this year I ceased posting on ww2talk simply because I was not happy at being associated with a site that appeared to support a member who was himself a Waffen SS re-enactor.

I have now reached the regrettable conclusion that by changing sites I simply jumped out the frying pan into the fire as I now confess to not being at all comfortable in continuing to post on this site, given the views of some of the members.

I have now gone back, tail between my legs, to posting on ww2talk and take this opportunity of thanking everyone on ww2f for at least being completely honest with me in voicing your opinions.

Being the awkward b*****d that I am, I shall continue to monitor this site, so don’t be surprised if I feel obliged make the odd comment.

With all best wishes

Ron




.

 

But what did you expect Ron?

When you first visited this Forum, didn't it strike you all the german names the members use:

PzJgr, Jaeger, konigstiger, Panzerfuhrer, TA 152, Herr Kaleun, von Poop, german mauser K98 man and so on..

I don't mean that these guys are nazis, but I guess most of these guys don't even speak german, so why use a german name?

When a neo-nazi sees those names, he must think he has found nazi heaven.
Is it necessary to use names that give people wrong associations?
This goes not only for this Forum.
I find it very common on all WWII Forums I have visited.

You use your full name on this Forum.
My signature RAM has nothing to do with the Dodge RAM vehicle, RAM are my initials. No more, no less; that's all.

Perhaps someone has an answer?

Regards
RAM

 

Ron,
It goes back to the old "let's see how many people we can annoy by wearing Nazi uniform" idea- same reason British bikers in the Sixties wore Jerry helmets and covered themselves in Swastikas and Iron Crosses.
Actually, I saw a bloke about 50 riding a Harley Davidson last weekend in a Jerry helmet. You'd think he might have grown up by now......

 

History has proven how awful the ranks were & to patronize a sect of evil individuals speaks volumes about ones personal ideology.

To think if prior to the Hitler regime your neighbors, your best friend, even your wife or girlfriend were deemed "undesireable" & were sent off to labor camps or worse, how could anyone justify actions by being an active participant unless they do not agree with a democracy or basic freedoms for that matter.

I know it was a different place, at a different time, & i'll never walk an inch in their shoes but its still mind boggling.

Ron, in my short time here i've enjoyed reading your posts & value your input as a veteran. I do hope you reconsider leaving the board.

 

I use MORTMAN a play on words for MORTARMAN i was A Mortar Platoon leader in the US ARMY ACTIVE.... maybe i should have Picked FALLSCRIMJAGER i was a paratoooper for a lot of years LOL

 

FALLSCHIRMJÄGER would be the right spelling in that case...

RAM

 

Ron, with all respect:

Every coin has two faces.Those posts most offensive to you were also offensive to other people, you should be able to have noticed the stout (not to say deeply annoyed) reaction put up by a significant number of members.

You should also have noticed the general lack of quality on the noisiest pro-nazi posters, and that one was simply expelled, another was put in the cooler, while others are finding it a rather difficult slog.

You are the master of your own decisions, but please be assured that the matter has not been given a rest.

As they said in another time and place, "No Pasarán!"

Signed,
Another awkward b*****d, if I may borrow the honour.

 

Ron,
I don't think you should leave either. Most of the members here are like minded to yourself and I'm sure everyone appreciates getting a veterans view of things.

 

Now it does take some nerve...

 

This is my first post, hopefully not the last, and I have *not* waded through all 7 pages of this thread yet. Please let me first of all voice my sincere appreciation that there are actual veterans of WW2 posting here, I am amazed, impressed and awed. A lot of people are too busy with real life to stoop to internet discussions, so we'll never see all of the existing opinions of those who were there, or of those that are academically or otherwise qualified to give one.

In any case, I have been living in Japan since 1998, and as an avid modeller and with an interest in history and martial arts, there are some inescapable facts to face: different cultures really are different, and the estimation and judgment made by one culture on another by virtue of what one sees and experiences of that other culture are effectively worthless---if anything is to be learnt from another culture, it is by actually living it and seeing what it has to offer, and make use of those things.

This is really brought home in many ways every day, even in modelling, where the most popular subjects in military modelling after Imperial Japanese Army and Navy subjects are, well, German subjects of WW2. Nobody gives a fig about the meaning of the swastika and its possible offence to people living in countries dominated by the Nazi jackboot, and discussions about the evils of the Nazi regime are considered entirely independent of the subject of modelling. The overriding reason for the interest is purely technical, since many of the most powerful vehicles or aircraft were built by the Germans. It is just as true that Russian and US aircraft are popular for these reasons, and I cannot detect any ideological reasons for preferring the Nazi aircraft. Cool colour schemes are another reason of course, for modelers. I have never seen any argument in Japan that somehow supports the Nazi cause. The odd case of excitement does occur when the causes of the Pacific War are considered, but I can put these arguments down squarely to complete ignorance of basic economics and politics, something that affects all but about 1% of the populations of all industrialized nations

Sensitivity is something that is not unknown in Japan though; for example, the school of martial arts I was at for many years does not publicly (that is, outside of special classes and seminars where people need to go purposely) teach sword techniques, since many students from Asian nations drop in for casual classes or to watch, and the older generation (among those training who are over 80 or 90) well appreciates how the Japanese sword is viewed in many of these nations.

Just my 2 cents worth, food for thought I hope.

 

Perhaps the SS 're-enactors' could 're-enact' the time the SS POWs spent on Wrangel Island, after capture by the Russians.

NONE survived.


OJ

 

Its funny though...

No-one is bothered by the Soviet re-enactors are they.

 

Any survivors of the SS Dirlenwagers brigade???. I want to know something about this unit, is there any book or sum can give info plz??

thx

 

Ok this is sure to stir up a hornets nest and probably get me jumped on..... but im gonna put my take on reeanctors for a moment.. While i was working On my Undergraduate Degree in history I too was a reenactor for 2 summers at Fort Snelling outside of minneapolis... One Summer I played the role of a Soldier assigned to the fort in the late 1850's.... the folllowing summmer I played the role at the park of a homesteader/farmer. in the 1850's.. I wore the authentic uniform and garb of the day... I learned a lot about life in that era and i hoped i helped educate a few people as well... But i sure as hell wouldnt wana live in that era... I enjoy My ipod... the ability to drive from point a to point b. I like modren medicine and dentistry a LOT.

I think a lot of these reenactors start thinking THEY lived in that era or served in the civil war, ww2 etc.... Fact is in reality they havent a clue really what it was like.. So these folks start goose stepping in nazi jackboots and wearing the deaths head on theyre hats... and they think because they portray these sinister bastards maybe the WAFFEN SS and gestapo were Like them... Nice guys just doing theyre jobs... and it was fun... because they dont commit atrocities therefore the Real Waffen SS didnt either.... We all know they did and no amount of rationalization is gonna change the fact that theyre are numerous personal accounts and documents backing up these FACTS...

Gee because i played a farmer from the plains of Minnesota in 1854 can i give ya advice on making a sod house or explain how back breaking it was to plow a field day in and day out using a horse drawn plow?.. I dont think so...

A lot of reeanctors think theyre EXPERTS, and they honestly know what it was like.. Frankly they know a bit more then the avarege joe blow on the block... but they still arent the people they portray and they sure as helll didnt really serve in these historical units in real live combat...

I kinda see reenactors in the same vein as airsofters... theyre still playing war... The reality war isnt a game.. and I am a combat veteran.... I know from first hand experiance.... You can tell me all the stats facts and figures on this or that units involvement at kursk... but you my friend WERE NOT THEYRE.... and for gods sake stop trying to gloss over the facts just because you admire a uniform or some sort of warrior image you have in your mind about some said unit or personell.... Dont lie to yourself... 99% of most reenactors as just as cluless to what it was really like as JOHN Q PUBLIC... difference is most people dont try to gloss over or legitimize atrocities.. and we dont spend Hundreds on uniforms and mock weapons to "PLAY ACT"

Reenactors can provide a wealth of good information and they do keep history alive which is a good thing... but ya also gotta stick to the facts... And the fact is the WAFFEN SS and other nazi fantical groups were some evil sobs... I dont care if some guy held off an entire russian tank brigade for god and fatherland one day... i bet the week before he helped shoot pows or raised some russian village full of the elderly, Women and kids...

Stop playing war and learn the damm truth...

I hope folks in the future dont start Strutting around in Digital ACU uniforms playing modern us army soldiers and or wearing the garb of an Al queda terrorist or some taliban fanatic... people will probably glorfy them too... Wearing a vest packed with explosives and walking around it it will become "COOL" and theyll start saying how the taliban were "FREEDOM FIGHTERS" and "Patriots"... and how the trade center was actually a US government conspircay and al those people didnt really Die on 9/11....

 

Ron,

You bring knowledge and experience to this forum. I doubt I’m in the minority with the invitation for you to continue here with more threads and frequent posts.

 

I agree with all you say, but once the precedent for the W-SS is opened, who is going to keep anyone to reenact Al Qaeda or Hezbollah or whatever sometime in the near future? Why, are they any less palatable than the W-SS?

 

I have to take acception with equating "Airsofters" with Reenacting. I reenact in a historical context. I don't go around shooting people with a toy gun. I unlike them do not "Play at war". "You're Dead! NO Im not! " LOL. Or actully shooting at someone. My weapon is real LOL. I try to the best of my abilities and knowledge,and I am certainly no "Expert", to portray what camp life ,tactics and views were of an average Civil War soldier was during that period. Hoping to spark an interest in someone to go and learn more on the subject. And there are reenactors who are much more Hardcore then I am. I reenact as an educational tool .Not to "Play". And I in no way claim to be a soldier of that era or any other. Far from it.

 

I doubt that, I can't imagine anyone...

RAM