Anyone interested in some intellectual exercise?

I can become comfortable with your revised construction estimate on Carrier Hulls. While it will mean one more class of CV, we already will have so many that I am not sure it will matter that greatly in the long run, and the addition of new hulls quicker will also offset the maitenance cost of multiple hull types. My support is contingent upon reaching a 2.5 year build time on new Shokaku's, without a significant increase in cost.

I will conceed the need for DesRon Leaders...reluctantly. (In what I have read little mention is made of Allied navies using such ships)

I am in firm agreement that the best ASW escort is an organic air compliment. I wantI want CVE's from converted merchant/liner hulls, with us eventually fielding 12 to 15 of these ships (3-4 per year)[more if practicle]. I also wish to energeticly explore the Merchant Aircraft Carrier (MAC) concept proposed earlier. A large tanker with a flush deck and no hangers, with 5-6 aircraft parked on deck seem a cost effective way to augment ASW protection while not costing a merchant hull.

Pilots and aircraft are a concern, but our intention to at least double the number of pilots in training, not allow any stoppages in aircraft production and even increase such production seem to be an excellent first step in meeting this requirement.

 

I agree with you Noka Shijin, The Shokakus took about 18 mos from laying down to launching and another 14 to 22 months from launching to commissioning. The 8 month difference in the launch to commission time was more than likely a result of resource shortages or allocating resources to more pressing builds. So historically Shokaku/Zuikaku took 32/40 months from laying down to commissioning. The Tahio in contrast, being a more complicated design took 21 months from laying down to launching which would be expected, but only 11 months from launching to commissioning which in all likelyhood reflects the allocation of resources (materials, workers, and shipfitting infrastructure), giving priority to what was seen as a pressing need. Note that this 11 month time from launching to commissioning is comparable to the Unryu's, Unryu 12 mos 11 days, Amagi 11 mos 10 days and Katsuragi 8 mos 26 days. Unryu, Amagi and Katsuragi were all laid down and launched in 12.5 to 13.5 months which is to be expected because they were a simplified, smaller and less survivable design. Based upon the quoted statistics I think we can look at future Shokakus taking 16-18 months from laying down to launching and 11 months from launching to commissioning so our probable time frame is 27-29 months for a Shokaku and 24 months for an Unryu. I think the additional 3 to 5 months is an acceptable difference for the better carrier.

I think your estimate is right on the money.

Another thing that should be noted is that historically the reason Japan found herself with a lack of carriers was Coral Sea and Midway. Both of these were largely a result of US intelligence information gleaned from having broken our codes. Germany warned us in the summer of 1941 that the US was reading our coded traffic and had decrypted British transmissions between Washington to the Home Islands containing information provided from "Magic" decrypts. The historical Japanese leaders ignored this, but hopefully we won't. Yamamoto insisted on strict security measures for the Pearl Harbor strike and it was not discovered. I find it interesting that Germany warned Japan about her signal security, but didn't take additional precautions with theirs. Arrogance on both parts I guess. Anyway, if we remove this advantage we will probably maintain parity in carriers well into 1943, especially if we adopt the tactic of engaging enemy carrier task forces within the coverage range of our land based air, which in the case of the Betty is several times that of the strike range of US carrier based aircraft.

I'm still not convinced of the wisdom of completing her. Her hull was 45% complete when construction was suspended. Even so when construction was restarted after Midway she didn't launch until 05 October 1944. If we lay down the two or three Shokakus we are discussing by mid-October 1941 we'll have them completed by mid-October 1943 to March 1944. The steel in her if scrapped plus that of the Yamato 4 should provide enough steel for three Shokakus. Three more capable carriers, a year earlier seems to me to be the more responsible expenditure of our resources.

Would not the scrapping of Shinano and Yamamoto 4 free up the additional building space?

Historically Japan did not ramp up pilot production until 1943 when they realized they were in trouble. They had planned on a short war, I think the council is in agreement that we're going to plan for a long war and hope on a short one. I addressed the pilot training issue with historical training rates in post#774.

The historical averages for pilots entering training per month are as follows:
(shown as year:average number of pilots entering training each month)

IJA-'41:195 '42:185 '43:615 '44:615 '45:615
IJN-'41:150 '42:150 '43:480 '44:480 '45:480
MosTot-'41:345 '42:335 '43:1095 '44:1095 '45:1095

Now later in the war they also adopted many of the aircraft improvements I am advocating. Increased firepower, self-sealing fuel tanks, additional armor protection, more powerful engines to maintain performance, etc. Even at historical aircraft production rates Japan didn't run out of aircraft, look at the tremendous numbers that were expended in Kamikazi strikes, it was trained pilots we lacked. The Battle of the Phillipine Sea (Great Marianas Turkey Shoot) and using Japanese carriers as bait during the invasion of the Phillipines show that we still had decks but not the experienced aircrews and effective aircraft.

I think we need to simultaneously take the following steps immediately upon assuming power:
1) Increase research into more powerful radial engines.
2) Continue aircraft production uninterupted. (We can still use these aircraft in rear areas and for training once the newer types replace them)
3) Begin engineering work to incorporate suggested aircraft improvements.
4) Ramp up pilot training rates.
5) Scrap Shinano.
6) Lay down two or three Shokakus.

We can hope the US delays or stays out of the war, but need to plan for it going to war immediately. We need the aircraft allocated to destroy its airfields and aircraft in the Phillipines. That only leaves them the option, initially, to conduct a submarine campaign. If we prevent fuel, supplies, torpedos, spare parts and aircraft from reaching the Phillipines I do not think it necessary to invade the well defended areas. We can take less defended parts and surrounding islands and tighten the noose. Rather quickly their lack of supply will prevent them from effectively interfering with our operations. If we have Noumea and either constrict Australia's supply lines or enter into a treaty with them we remove Australia as another staging area, we need to attempt to neutralize New Zealand also. This moves the US's bases even further back and further reduces their retaliation potential.

Based upon these assumptions, I'd say we need to immediately produce ASW escort vessels. If that's the only way they can strike back at us initially, we need to prepare an appropriate response.

As for escort carriers, they can wait. The historical reason they were built is to provide air cover for areas that could not be covered by landbased air. We do not have that problem. We can run our convoys from the Southern Resource Area under continuous coverage of land based air, and lots of it. This is another reason to produce pilots and aircraft. Also, the question of merchant hulls vs escorts is also simple mathematics. If we don't produce the escorts we have to produce merchant hulls in excess to our losses to submarines in order to improve our logistical situation. If we build the escorts we greatly reduce this factor so that we have produce less merchant tonnage to increase our capability. While we're talking about it, we can greatly increase our available capacity by simply being smarter in how we use our merchant shipping assets. An incidental advantage to this is we should decrease fuel consumption per unit of cargo delivered. We should also immediately institute a convoy system.

The Kuma class: Kuma, Tama, Kitakami, Oi, and Kiso, plus the similar Nagara class: Nagara, Isuzu, Yura, Natori, Kinu and Abukuma, if converted to CLAA's, would be a great asset for providing AA protection to our carriers. I've been looking into what we could actually do conversion wise, the way it looks now, based upon space and weight, we could fit 14 x 3.9" guns in 7 twin mounts (12 of which could fire to each broadside) and 16 x 40mm bofors in 8 twin mounts, if we deleted the floatplanes and most of the torpedo tubes. Additionally, we could add an undetermined number of 20mm oerlikon mounts. this would make them compare favorably with the US Atlanta class and actually exceed the capabilities of our cruisers and batleships in AA firepower. I think they would serve better in this capacity than as destroyer leaders, if my calculations prove to be correct.

 

One consideration for carriers is that the Unryu type would require 2 to 3 to match a Shokaku type, so while it may take longer it would probably be more effecient material wise. Before we get into type of carriers and such we need to decide how soon we might get into a fight with the US if we do.

 

I think your math is a bit fuzzy here, as a Shokaku carries 10-15% more a/c than a Unryu, so 3 Un's would about equal 2 Sho's in strike capacity.

As for America, 9 to 12 months of peace would be ideal, allowing enough time to seize and consolodate primary tagets, allow for organization of convoy's, while not giving them enough time to overly strengthen the Philipines. A more realistic 6 months would nearly give enough time, and a pessamistic 3-4 months would still be quite a boon.

 

From the military attachè in Rome: In the Mediterranean puting a couple of planes over a convoy lasting two days (the med is narrow) proved to require the efforts of multiple squadrons, doing so over longer distances is likely to be worse. This is terribly inefficient resource wise compared to having an air capable ship with the convoy. As ASW seems to be the only requirement catapult floatplanes look attractive but having the capability to drive away a spotter is important and the A6M2-N and N1K1 are not designed for catapult launch so a flat top able to carry 4-6 ASW planes and a pair oi fighters would be the ideal, we probably only need one fighter qualified pilot and 3 ASW crews on her but the "carrier" will have very little in terms of aircraft maintenance capability so spare airframes are a must.
Another plane we will need sooner and in large numbers is the H8K1, the importance of aggressive long range recon to naval operations cannot be underestimated and the H8K1 is the best we have for it The big flying boats should be reserved for patrol work, while using them for strike in unexpected areas may look tempting, thanks to their huge range, it's wasteful of a critical resource.

 

Re size; my math is fine I said 2 at least. It is a consideration that it will take more to build 2 unryus plus we will need more escorts for more ships. What about converting the 4 Yamashiros to hybrids so they can carry scout planes or even full conversions? They will be overmatched by the new American battleships.

 

Steve I've been meaning to ask you, which version of the game you're using. The original Grigsby version, Matrix's "War in the Pacific" or "War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition"?

 

If Taiho beats the first Shokaku's by only 3 months, is it advisable to even complete her as a one off CV, or clear the slipway entirely in favor of another Shokaku?

Since we accept the possibility/probability of a long war I still favor laying down the first 2 Unryu's as per SP's revised program. As they clear the slipway we can then decide if we need more hulls quickly and continue new production of them, or look upon them as a stopgap program to fill the void until our primary design can deploy in numbers.

Perhaps our Rome Attache can explore the possibility of securing Italian Radar designs should German ones be too costly to aquire. I understand much preliminary work was done by Italy, but operational units not fielded by them. We might need to finish the design work, but it might be quicker than pursuing our own independent research on home grown designs.

Still having trouble with the math SR. The tonnage of 3 Unryu's is about equal to 2 Shokaku's, as are the air compliments versus 3 U's to 2 S's. Yes some more escorts would be needed, but likely in the order of 2-3 Fleet Destroyer's if operating as a single group, If anyone is proposing they be operated individualy, and thereby needing 2 to three escort groups, they will find themselves as the first inductee's into the Divine Wind Corps.

Converting the Yamashiro's either into quasi or full carriers would be beyond desparation. They would carry even fewer aircraft than a single hanger Shinano, and as a seaplane carrier would be hidiously expensive to operate with reguard to fuel.

If we find ourselves in a surface gun duel we will likely have to best Dreadnoughts afloat in Yamato and Musashi present which will compensate along with our Long Lance Torpedos. The American's also have a good number of slow elderly Battleships as well so this does not worry me to greatly until or unless our Kido Butai no longer exists.

 

Haah, I like that, that's good! Give me a Japanese name for yourself and I'll pencil you into the Command Structure you'll have a place at the table whenever your duties in Rome allow it, so no pressure.

I think there are several factors that make our problem different from that in the Med.
-First, after the initial operations, there will be no enemy air or surface units to worry about for several years.
-Secondly, our aircraft have much longer legs than those used in the Med. and we'll have the excess aircraft. We will have lots of pilots getting training time in, might as well use their air time to good effect. We can travel along the coasts handing off the convoy from one area to the next. I'm not talking of following the convoy per say but scheduling ASW searches to coincide with when the convoy will be transiting. Flood the area with searching aircraft prior to the the convoy arriving and continuing the search until the convoy passes and moves into the next zone of control. For the times when its more efficient to make a non-stop convoy not following the coast make your convoys larger but less frequent. Attach a hefty ASW escort and use a training carrier (oh, BTW I think we should redesignate the Hosho as a CVT and use her for training new aircrews, carrier training should be well into the pilots training evolution after they have developed their skill sets and have lots of hours flying). I'm also not saying we don't need escort carriers, I'm saying they can wait until we have more important types starting to enter service. Once we have our basic requirements met we can build what we need and would like to have instead of building what we need and it is critical that we have. Most of the escort ships we're talking about do not have long lead times and their slips will come back open fairly quickly in case we see we need some CVE's immediately. As for CV's they have such a long lead time if we don't jump on them quickly, the construction time is so long we'll find ourselves constantly playing catchup.

I'm in full agreement here, and when we stand up new squadrons they too can be used for convoy ASW support until the aircrews have sufficient airtime to forward deploy them, I'd add Search and Rescue to their patrol work duties.

 

General Nishio,
Time to start discussing your problems more in depth. I need to start editing in our new TOE. All units will start with Japan's historical TOE's for each division. I am in favor of creating new standardized TOE's within our ground forces. We can call the first the T-42 TOE, we will need at least one additional TOE to reflect when we get man portable anti-tank devices, whether they be bazooka's that we back engineer or panzerfausts/panzershreks we aquire from Germany. I favor the second option and we can get the plans and any special tooling we might need. IMO, we need and Infantry Division TOE, a Mechanized Division TOE, and an Armored Division TOE. I would be inclined to create and attach seperate specialized Brigades and Battalions. For instance in your assault on Changsha you probably don't need an anti-aircraft battalion or a tank destroyer battalion, if you form these seperately they could be attached at the corps or division level as needed and in the quantities needed to deal with the potential threat. I'd be interested in your thoughts on this.

Heres a proposed Corps level organizational structure, the Corps is a square type formation with 4 divisions plus organic attachments, while the division is of triangular configuration with three RCT's (Regimental Combat teams). I prefer to go with the RCT's (an infantry regiment with attached divisional assets to allow it to operate independantly as a combined arms package), because it allows more flexibility in employment and more more rapid movement and maneuver than for the division as a whole because it's not slowed down by the heavier assets.

Here's the organizational structure for a Japanese Corps. Click to enlarge.

 

General Nishio, I continue. You will notice that at the Corps level I have attached an air wing (I'm using American terminology because I am more familiar with it and Japanese terminology can be inexact and the actual organization changed over time, for example while Sentai is normally associated with the american equivalent of an air group, it can mean squadron, group, wing or flotilla). For our purposes I will define the different levels as follows: Squadron the lowest organizational command level, I prefer them to be sized from 12 to 36 aircraft and pilots, with additional pilots and aircraft as spares. Group, two or more squadrons. Wing, two or more groups. Air Force or Air Fleet, two or more wings. I would prefer to make the wing subordinate to the Corps commander to facilitate coordination and control. The Air Wing headquarters will take orders from the Corps commander as to its missions, will draw supply from the Corps, but will be responsible for the administration, planning, operations, relaying of and execution of orders given by the Corps.

You will also notice that the Corps has two attachments, an airborne regiment and a horse or mechanized cavalry regiment. The type of cavalry regiment will depend upon the terrain in the Corps area of operation. These I intend to be operational level assets, units not to be used for common tactical operations, but used to influence the operational success of the operation. The airborne forces would be used for seizure of critical deep targets, to be used as blocking forces to prevent the escape of retreating enemy forces and missions of this nature. The cavalry would be used for screening, area denial, raids against supply lines or reconaissance operations. They wouldn't be making cavalry charges, the horses are primarily intended to give these forces long range, speed, and mobility while requiring minimal logistical support. An example in relation to the Changsha operation. They would be used to screen the Japanese open left flank, if they locate enemy forces they will call in air support, notify corps of the intell and fall back. Infantry can't keep up with horses so they should easily be able to break contact and avoid encirclement. They can set up at critical choke points and fight a delaying action, buying time for heavier units to move against the enemy forces or adjust their disposition to meet the enemys attacks. You will have eyes in the sky from the air wing and eyes on the ground from the cavalry. Your Corps is an administrative formation and will function as a command an control unit and facilitate supplying its subordinate units.

Next you'll notice three Japanese Divisions and one indigenous division. In this case it is Chinese, but it could be Thai, Indo-Chinese, Malayan, etc. depending on your AO. It will normally be less trained, less reliable, have lower morale and be armed with inferior equipment. It should not be used for major combat offensive operations, it will be fine for patrolling and securing areas that have already been cleared of main force enemy units, for securing towns or mopping up operations. When one of these units shows superior fighting abilities I'd pull them out, replace them with another indigenous unit, then upgrade their equipment and provide additional training, then place them in an all indigenous corps that has responsibility for an area that we can pull our combat troops out of.

The three Japanese Divisions each have three RCT's. An infantry regiment with all intrinsic weaponry, an attached anti-tank company from the divisional anti-tank battalion, probably the Japanese Type-1 47mm gun. An attached Combat Engineer Company from the divisional Combat Engineer Battalion, and an attached 75mm pack howitzer battery from the divisional artillery regiment and a headquarters and support battalion. The division also has a seperate light tank battalion and a reconaissance battalion (you can name it raider or ranger or whatever). The reconaissance battalion would be used for screening or flanking movement type operations on the tactical level. I have provided two headquarters elements a HQ Forward and a HQ Rear. The forward would be commanded by the Divisional Commander and should be an officer with good leadership and ground combat skills. It would contain the heavier artillery, some supply, the heavy SP anti-tank guns, regular engineers, etc. The rear would contain the Divisional XO who would be an officer with good administrative skills and will contain the majority of the support elements. It will basically function to push supplies to the division forward. I need to find a good Changsha map and I'll show you how they could be used tactically. I will.

 

I am playing the admirals edition. I had a thought, why not use the Hiyo and Junyo as dedicated scouting. Take away their db and give them extra tbs. Also what about dedicating one Junyo to cap only and one to half cap half scout TB which can be used as extra strike craft. We can have the first two divisions based on one Shoku and Kaga or Akagi for the strike and then add the Unryu class later. The three lights can give up their TB to the Junyo and then take their DBs and then be used for merchant raiding and airfield attack. The Soryu and Hiryu can be teamed with additional Unryu later but for now be reserve. Is the Taiho class worth using? . I would propose using the Kongos with our CA's, say 1 Kongo with 4 CA's. There are also 4 old CL's that we might be able to convert to troop transport or something else useful, since they only have a speed of 18 kn they are not very useful.
The Colorado class is fairly new and are useful and they are better then the Yamashiro class. SO if conversion of the Yamashiro class is negative should we consider scrapping.

 

From the (still unnamed but will get to it) military attachè in Rome: Italian radar technology is a waste of time, while they did get the theory at about the same time as the others the implementation was handicapped by the "autarchia" (basically Not Invented Here squared) ideology that developed with the sanctions as the home grown electronic components suffered from hideous quality control. German tech while more expensive will be more reliable (though nothing special AFAIK radar failure played a large role in the loss of two of the KM's ships). Pity as the Italians would badly need the long ranged Zero, provided the design could be adapted to local engines, for air superiority over the central Med.
Another thing I would look into is the German Lurssen MTBs, if the hull design proves as good in the Pacific sea conditions as it did in the North Sea they would make a good addition to our our defensive setup, though the very sofisticated design may be hard to produce, especially the fast diesels. we may go with the Isotta Fraschini instead, the Italians sold them to the British so they will sell them to us as well. We do need a good MGB to protect the coastal barge traffic that is vital to our operations, an MTB is less important but would help make any "medium effort" raid against the perimeter a risky operation and idle MTBs are less maintenance heavy than planes. Italian "special ops" tech is also attractive, especially the underwater breathing equipment, while a Japanese X MAS is out of character a couple of I subs converted to a Scirè/Gondar like configuration would tie up a lot of allied resources and may result in a big local success, and the untethered air breathers will be useful for defensive work and ship repair.

I'm not convinced shore base ASW patrols are cost effective, especially over open waters, the trip to the convoy and back uses up a lot of fuel and air time and is prone to navigation errors.

 

Fusos/Ises:
The Fusos and Ises, while older, are perfectly decent battleships with some admirable qualities. (Yamashiro was the second unit of the Fuso class. The follow on Ise class was similar but better armored, better arranged, and quite distinct from the earlier Fuso class.) They're faster than all but the newest US BBs. Their armament is roughly equivalent with these. They are both more heavily armed and armored than the Kongos. Not only are they well worth keeping in the battle line, should we ever need it, but they could be quite effective at shore bombardment. I wouldn't convert them to carriers. They'd never be effective. Nor would I scrap them. There's a place for them in the fleet. The four older battleships of BatDiv 2 can, with adequate escort, operate as an independent unit in areas where we can provide land based air support. If we desire organic air support we could pair them with Juyo and Hiyo at need when they become available. An amphibious force with four battleships and two carriers could prove quite formidable. The four newer battleships of BatDiv 1 could be used similarly: as the core of an amphibious assault force.

Hiyos:
Admiral Takao earlier pointed out that in actual practice their sea speed was restricted to 22-23 knots by their frequent engine faults. While they could sometimes operate in concert with our fast strike forces, they would slow them down considerably if we included them in the same formation. They would probably not serve well to provide CAP for a faster force. However, I believe they would make ideal platforms to provide air support for an amphibious force. Once we have them worked up I would favor holding them as a strategic reserve and attaching them to forces that need an organic air element on an ad hoc basis. I'd hate to waste them on convoy escort since they can carry such a large air wing, but I'd also hate to slow our principal formations down quite that much.

Taiho:
I can't see how we could clear Taiho out of a berth and get a Shokaku laid down and built any quicker. She's been building about three months. This sounds like an awkward stage to me. We probably can't just float her to clear the dock, but it would take real time to scrap her in situ. Once we had the dock clear it would take further time to arrange the materials and patterns to reset the dock to build a Shokaku. We've already got the supply stream started for Taiho. Let her play out. She'll take a little longer than a Shokaku, but not that much longer. Properly handled she should be close to a Shokaku in capability and probably slightly more survivable.

Shinano:
Shinano is a different matter. I can see the Prime Minister's point and I'm nearly swayed. We would have to change patterns and supplies anyway if we convert, so there's no real loss there. My only reason to go ahead with the conversion is my suspicion that she could make a very fine carrier indeed if we build her right. She would have very good compartmentalization, a very efficient plant, a very generous flight deck, and potentially very good facilities. Possibly even better than a Shokaku. I see her as a roughly an Akagi sized Taiho, which sounds quite useful.

Destroyer Leaders:
The Royal Navy began building specialized destroyer leaders during late WWI. Ships like the Admiralty type leaders were essentially slightly enlarged destroyers with enhanced command facilities. Externally, they became quite difficult to distinguish from other destroyers. In later classes, like the J class, the first ship of the class was built to a slightly different design as a flotilla leader, but was otherwise considered a member of the class. (J leader HMS Jervis is a good example.)

While the U.S. Navy never officially designated them so, larger destroyers like the Somers class were designed in part to fill this role. In practice U.S. destroyer squadrons were usually attached to other formations, and thus cruisers usually performed the flag role.

We have spent considerable time and effort developing specialized night attack doctrines and new weapons like the Type 93 torpedo, and our destroyers can operate with considerable independence. While we will no doubt want to operate them with the fleet much of the time, at other times we will wish them to contest remote operational areas. There is no reason a cruiser converted to an AA role couldn't serve as flagship to such a formation quite adequately, but our destroyers are probably too cramped, for all their large size. (Much of which is dedicated to large powerplants.)

Building Programs:
I've already worked both the scrapping of Yamato 4 and 3 new Shokakus into my spreadsheet. (And now two Unryus as well.) Scrapping Shinano would indeed make room for another Shokaku if we decide to do so, potentially allowing us to build 4 simultaneously.

I think I can agree that we should vastly accelerate our escort production. Given further information, I've filled out my earlier construction plans. Smaller "Kaibokan" type escorts have previously been built in smaller yards, and I would follow that trend. They still do not appear on the list, as small yards of the relevant types aren't yet included in my survey.

The "Shimushu" class seems a good jumping off point. We could remove all but one of the DP guns and greatly increase the DC capacity. We should investigate DC projectors. The WWI British Y-gun is known to us and will give us a place to start. Simplified versions of this, in essence K-guns, could be quite small and could be fitted in many places. This would give us at least a basic capability to project ASW weapons to the sides and front. Perhaps we could even consider a weapon that releases a number of small grenade-like depth charges to blanket a large area. They would be less lethal, but the increased probability of a direct hit could be quite useful. Depth could be regulated by a time fuze over a known descent rate. They could, perhaps, even be provided with a contact or magnetic fuze. We should ask the Germans both what they might have and what they know of new RN ASW weapons.

Here is my current suggested building program:

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]Yard[/TD]
[TD]Name/No.[/TD]
[TD]Length[/TD]
[TD]Project[/TD]
[TD]Pos. Next[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kure[/TD]
[TD]Drydock 4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]750[/TD]
[TD]Oyodo[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kure[/TD]
[TD]Drydock 2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1000[/TD]
[TD]Shokaku 4 (Sasuhachi)[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kure[/TD]
[TD]Drydock 3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1000[/TD]
[TD]Yamato 4 <----[/TD]
[TD]Shokaku 5 (Akabachi)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kure[/TD]
[TD]Drydock 1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1200[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sasebo[/TD]
[TD]Drydock 1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]400[/TD]
[TD]I-46 abd 47[/TD]
[TD]2 Additional SS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sasebo[/TD]
[TD]Drydock 2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]500[/TD]
[TD]I-38 and 39[/TD]
[TD]2 Additional SS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sasebo[/TD]
[TD]Drydock 3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]500[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sasebo[/TD]
[TD]Slip 3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]500[/TD]
[TD]Akizuki 5 (Niizuki)[/TD]
[TD]Akizuki[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sasebo[/TD]
[TD]Slip 1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]600[/TD]
[TD]Agano[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sasebo[/TD]
[TD]Slip 2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]600[/TD]
[TD]Akizuki 4 (Hatsuzuki)[/TD]
[TD]Akizuki[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sasebo[/TD]
[TD]Drydock 5[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]900[/TD]
[TD]Chitose Conversion[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sasebo[/TD]
[TD]Drydock 6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]900[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sasebo[/TD]
[TD]Drydock 4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1200[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Yokasuka[/TD]
[TD]Drydock 3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]300[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Yokasuka[/TD]
[TD]Drydock 1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]450[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Yokasuka[/TD]
[TD]Drydock 2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]450[/TD]
[TD]Akizuki 10 (Yoizuki)[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Yokasuka[/TD]
[TD]Slip 4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]450[/TD]
[TD]Akizuki 9 (Harutsuki)[/TD]
[TD]Akizuki[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Yokasuka[/TD]
[TD]Drydock 4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]750[/TD]
[TD]Ryuho[/TD]
[TD]Chiyoda Conversion[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Yokasuka[/TD]
[TD]Slip 2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]750[/TD]
[TD]Agano[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Yokasuka[/TD]
[TD]Drydock 5[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1000[/TD]
[TD]Shinano[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Yokasuka[/TD]
[TD]Drydock 6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1000[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Yokasuka[/TD]
[TD]Slip 1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1000[/TD]
[TD]Shokaku 3 (Koganehachi)[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Maizuru[/TD]
[TD]Drydock 3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]250[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Maizuru[/TD]
[TD]Drydock 2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]300[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Maizuru[/TD]
[TD]Slip 2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]300[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Maizuru[/TD]
[TD]Drydock 1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]500[/TD]
[TD]Yugumo 12 (Hayanami)[/TD]
[TD]Akizuki[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Maizuru[/TD]
[TD]Drydock 4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]600[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Maizuru[/TD]
[TD]Slip 1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]600[/TD]
[TD]Akizuki 1[/TD]
[TD]Akizuki[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]KSB Kob.[/TD]
[TD]Drydock 4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]500[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]KSB Kob.[/TD]
[TD]Drydock 3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]650[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]KSB Kob.[/TD]
[TD]Drydock 1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1000[/TD]
[TD]Taiho[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]KSB Kob.[/TD]
[TD]Drydock 2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1000[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]MHI Nag.[/TD]
[TD]Drydock 3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]250[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]MHI Nag.[/TD]
[TD]Drydock 1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]450[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]MHI Nag.[/TD]
[TD]Slip 5[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]450[/TD]
[TD]Akizuki 2 (Teruzuki)[/TD]
[TD]Akizuki[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]MHI Nag.[/TD]
[TD]Slip 6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]450[/TD]
[TD]Akizuki 3 (Suzutsuki)[/TD]
[TD]Akizuki[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]MHI Nag.[/TD]
[TD]Drydock 2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]600[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]MHI Nag.[/TD]
[TD]Slip 3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]600[/TD]
[TD]Akizuki 6 (Wakatsuki)[/TD]
[TD]Akizuki[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]MHI Nag.[/TD]
[TD]Slip 4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]600[/TD]
[TD]Akizuki 7 (Shimotsuki)[/TD]
[TD]Akizuki[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]MHI Nag.[/TD]
[TD]Slip 1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]750[/TD]
[TD]Unryu 1[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]MHI Nag.[/TD]
[TD]Slip 2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]750[/TD]
[TD]Unryu 2 (Amagi)[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]MHI Yok.[/TD]
[TD]Slip 1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]300[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]MHI Yok.[/TD]
[TD]Slip 2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]300[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]MHI Yok.[/TD]
[TD]Drydock 2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]450[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]MHI Yok.[/TD]
[TD]Slip 3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]450[/TD]
[TD]Akizuki 8 (Fuyuzuki)[/TD]
[TD]Akizuki[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]MHI Yok.[/TD]
[TD]Slip 4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]450[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]MHI Yok.[/TD]
[TD]Drydock 1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]600[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]MHI Kobe[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]I-40 and 41[/TD]
[TD]2 Additional SS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]MHI Kobe[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]I-42 and 43[/TD]
[TD]2 Additional SS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]MHI Kobe[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]I-44 and 45[/TD]
[TD]2 Additional SS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Fuji Niigata[/TD]
[TD]Drydock 1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]400[/TD]
[TD]Yugumo 8 (Tamanami)[/TD]
[TD]Yugumo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Fuji Niigata[/TD]
[TD]Drydock 2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]400[/TD]
[TD]Yugumo 11 (Fujinami)[/TD]
[TD]Yugumo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Harima[/TD]
[TD]Drydock 1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]500[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Harima[/TD]
[TD]Slip 1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]500[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Harima[/TD]
[TD]Slip 2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]500[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Harima[/TD]
[TD]Slip 3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]500[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Harima[/TD]
[TD]Slip 4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]500[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ishikawa[/TD]
[TD]Slip 1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]450[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ishikawa[/TD]
[TD]Slip 2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]450[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ishikawa[/TD]
[TD]Slip 3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]450[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mitsui Tam[/TD]
[TD]Drydock 2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]400[/TD]
[TD]Yugumo 14 (Okinami)[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mitsui Tam[/TD]
[TD]Drydock 3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]400[/TD]
[TD]Yugomo 15 (Kishinami)[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mitsui Tam[/TD]
[TD]Drydock 1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]450[/TD]
[TD]Yugomo 16 (Asashimo)[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mitsui Tam[/TD]
[TD]Slip 5[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]450[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mitsui Tam[/TD]
[TD]Slip 6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]450[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mitsui Tam[/TD]
[TD]Slip 3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]500[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mitsui Tam[/TD]
[TD]Slip 4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]500[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mitsui Tam[/TD]
[TD]Slip 1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]600[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mitsui Tam[/TD]
[TD]Slip 2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]600[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Uraga[/TD]
[TD]Slip 1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]300[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Uraga[/TD]
[TD]Slip 4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]300[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Uraga[/TD]
[TD]Slip 5[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]300[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Uraga[/TD]
[TD]Slip 6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]300[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Uraga[/TD]
[TD]Drydock 1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]400[/TD]
[TD]Yugumo 10 (Suzunami)[/TD]
[TD]Yugumo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Uraga[/TD]
[TD]Drydock 2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]400[/TD]
[TD]Yugumo 13 (Hamanami)[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Uraga[/TD]
[TD]Slip 2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]600[/TD]
[TD]Yugumo 7 (Takanami)[/TD]
[TD]Akizuki[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Uraga[/TD]
[TD]Slip 3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]600[/TD]
[TD]Yugumo 9 (Kiyonami)[/TD]
[TD]Akizuki[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]



I'm still quite unsure of the capacity of the Mitsubishi-Kobe yard, but they seem to have built five subs simultaneously in the last defense authorization. Here's to hoping they can build six, but if we have to trim it back one, I'd be happier doing that than starting construction at another yard. (Though Kure, Yokasuka, and perhaps also Maizuru have all built subs before.)

This is still rough, but it's cleaning up some. Hopefully you'll find it more useful now.

 

Also: Why not consider lighter than air craft for ASW? We'll probably be forced to use hydrogen, thanks to U.S. sanctions, but the endurance could prove quite useful. Perhaps even hot air might work. Anything that would give us improved loiter time and altitude. In Pacific ocean conditions we might even be able to visually obtain a fair number of subs. They can't stay under forever, particularly not at any depth. And while they might see us coming, we could probably obtain them from beyond their range to respond. We'd want to be careful about the weather, of course.

 

I suggested using the Hiyo and Junyo as dedicated scouting not cap. They could sail independent due to their speed. ALso what do you think of using one deck just for cap

 

i cant really invision an imperial blimp for asw, the only nation that uses blimps is the us and,if i remember correctly they only have 2 or 3 for this work.

 

gunbunnyb/3/75FA,

Your probably thinking of the USN's rigid airships(aka Zeppelins), of which the US Navy purchased six, although none made it into World War II, all having been wrecked(4) or scrapped(2). As to non-rigid airships(aka blimps), during World War II, the US Navy purchased almost 200, and they were used into the very early 1960's.

Edit: I also don't see the Japanese as developing non-rigid airships, given their relative lack of experience in this field and there ongoing juggling of insufficient resources to meet war-time needs.

 

While this idea, on the surface, is a good one, the Japanese learned from practical experience that it was a failure.

The Japanese completed 8 boats of the T-51 class, during 1943-45, that were based on the German "Schnellboot" design, and they proved to be dismal failures. They were structurally weak, and according to "Warships of the Imperial Japanese Navy, 1869-1945" they were the wrong length for Pacific waves. I would surmise that their long length(for an MTB) left them prone to excessive hogging and sagging in open waters. The boats of this class that were completed, were soon converted into guard ships or submarine chasers.

It is also worth noting that the Japanese used gasoline engines for these boats, and not diesels.

 

and

I would believe that for the Hiyo and Junyo to be effective scouting carriers, they should be operating with or slightly ahead of the "fleet" carriers. Since the one advantage possessed by Japanese aircraft was range, having the "scout" carriers operating behind the "fleet" carriers serves to greatly negate this range advantage. Also, turning these carriers, that can carry some 54 aircraft, into dedicated "scouting" carriers, seems to me like a colossal waste of those carriers abilities. Better to use them to support amphibious operations or act as a reserve supporting the main fleet carriers. Further, if any carriers should be placed "in reserve," it should be the slower Hiyo and Junyo, since the much faster Soryu and Hiryu can carry more aircraft and are more capable aircraft carriers.

The Yamashiros can be as effective many of the elderly American battleships, provided we can provide her with the same level of electronics and fire control. Besides, scrapping a warship will take time; first to cut down the warship and the to process the remains. Better to keep ship welders building warships, than having the cut up already existing ones into little pieces.

Using one deck for CAP, and I don't mean to offend, is ridiculous - in that it does not address the fundamental flaws of the Japanese CAP, namely 1.) The lack of radar to provide early identification & situation awareness of the developing action, and 2.) Little-to-no communications with the aircraft carrier/Fighter Direction Officer(FDO) and between the CAP aircraft themselves. With radar, when can identify incoming enemy aircraft much earlier. This allow our escorts to remain close to the carriers in order to aid in their defense, instead of being place far in advance of our carriers to act as early detection spotters. Communications between the carrier & between the CAP themselves will allow the CAP to more effectively handle any and all incoming threats.