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Anyone interested in some intellectual exercise?

Discussion in 'War in the Pacific' started by USMCPrice, Jan 22, 2012.

  1. steverodgers801

    steverodgers801 Member

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    I didnt think I had a formal vote but yes I approve the measure
     
  2. USMCPrice

    USMCPrice Idiot at Large

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    Yes sir, our Prime Minister approved your appointment as one of his first acts of today's meeting at the same time he approved General (Ret.) Kourei Yuushou (Tired Old Soldier) as our Chief Diplomatic Representative to the Axis Powers. He will oversee our diplomatic personnel in Germany, Italy and Vichy France in order for us to have a cohesive effort in our dealings with them.

    My request for your appointment was contained in the following official document.
    Fm:IJSCADMIN-041041-001

    The Prime Minister approved it with the following comment:
    Congratulations General Terauchi!
     
  3. steverodgers801

    steverodgers801 Member

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    I thought that one benefit of coordinating an announcement about China with the demands on the British and Dutch is it could neutralize some of the additional bad publicity with the US
     
  4. SymphonicPoet

    SymphonicPoet Member

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    The announcement that we are changing our policies in China? Is there any reason to wait to announce our change of policies in China?

    It just occurred to me now that we might invite U.S. observers to see our new China policies in action, so long as we can keep them isolated from our technological developments and our mobilizations for operations in the SRA. Had we previously discussed such an idea? Let the U.S. monitor our POW camps, which could be in Korea or Manchuria, and our policing in rear areas like shanghai. Maybe that would ameliorate some concerns. We might even invite specific civilian monitors. We should be cognizant of the probability that there will be spies among them, but I think we should be able to control information well enough to cope with that. We should, of course, let it be known that anyone caught spying for the Chinese will either join the POW camps or be ejected if they have a diplomatic cover (or belong to a third party nationality we don't wish to house and feed.)

    Perhaps this would be unwise for reasons I'm not immediately seeing. Perhaps the intelligence risk would be too great, or the diplomatic potential too small. But it seems worth considering.
     
  5. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Ace

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    As long as we can concentrate them at some extra areas, we can do it, but i don´t like it when strangers are sticking their noses to deep in my affairs!
     
  6. USMCPrice

    USMCPrice Idiot at Large

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    Earlier in our informal discussions, prior to the coup attempt, we had laid out a general outline for a propaganda campaign to neutralize unfavorable opinion of us in the U.S. I personally feel that we should dribble the "good" news out, in order to keep positive stories of our efforts before the American people. If we are diligent, I believe the fear of further stirring up isolationist sentiment will stay Roosevelt's hand in dealing with us. He will be afraid to act because of fear the American people will insist that the aid to the British and the Soviets be rolled back.

    Yes, informally, prior to the coup attempt. We discussed using hand picked officers being sent to the U.S. under diplomatic auspices, and have them put our story before the American public, churches, civic organizations, women's clubs, etc. We would explain what we were trying to do and frame it in a positive light and request, teachers, doctors, clergy, technical advisor's and request industrial development aid.

    Or we can restrict their movement to certain areas because we are "concerned" for their safety, which of course we will guarantee. If we make sure they see positive progress, and they write about our efforts to help the sick, and educate the poor, etc. we get good U.S. press. Spies are of less concern to me, we can easily restrict them from sensitive areas.

    No, as stated we touched on it, unofficially. I think it is a very important part of our overall war strategy and it should be pursued. I might even suggest that since we seem to have a few of our council temporarily missing, that the Prime Minister form a sub-committee charged with overseeing our diplomatic/propaganda campaign. We reach a consensus, present it to the Prime Minister and he approves, disapproves or approves with changes, which he will specify. I suggest that he include yourself (Admiral Noka), and General Nishio, since he is often here and because it will impact his AO the most. Myself and General Terauchi, because he too is present more often than most.

    Mr. Prime Minister the decision is yours.
     
  7. belasar

    belasar Court Jester

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    As in our informal disscussions I favored a robust effort on our part to sway public opinion in the US as well as other western countries so as to counteract the isolation we are beginning to find ourselves in. Even when it comes to a clash of arms between us and the colonial powers, any positive press we can generate in the neutral press will find itself making its way even to our enemies.

    I would say however that we take an elightened approach to our propaganda. By all means our central message must be the good we are offering to native populations that come under our control, but we must offer a smattering of less savory items to reinforce the impression that we, unlike our detractors, are being completely honest and transparent.

    This could include the hardship our civilian population is enduring with reguard to food supplies (to engender sympathy with religious segments of western society), Hardships endured by native populations by 'Bandit' actions (to reach the same audience, and imply that western aid is in part responsible for this), the arrest and trial of those officers most directly involved within the coup attempt ( to show we are trying to reign in our more war like elements and need the support of the west to continue this effort)

    The West will try to impart the image that we are monsters that must be beaten down reguardless of the cost. We in turn must do all in our power to counter this and rather leave the impression that dispite the color of our skin and the difference of our language, we are just like them. Without hate, it is difficult for a democracy to wage a war to the finish. We must give them no easy reason to hate us, just respect our determination to live as we always have or die in the effort.

    The Prime Minister
     
  8. steverodgers801

    steverodgers801 Member

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    What about only putting a demand the Dutch. Could the British afford to go to war with us if the Dutch agree to an occupation.
     
  9. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Ace

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    Mr. Prime Minister,

    My thoughts are to open our general Military hospitals in the bigger cities to the Citizens and building up some MASH-Camps out in the countryside. We give them a medical treatment if neccessary and keep an eye on guys with " war-Wounds" as they could be our enemies. Also it would be good to look for some little villages in our rear area where we set up a school system, healthcare and give the Chinese natives work in our workshops like for carpenters and so on. If we set up them in the right places we can give the committee a feeling that they can travel where they want and they can see only a good relationship and some other programs to help them. We also can lead them in a dangerous area to show them how evil the Chines partisans are. The "dangerous area" is where we want to have it and the partisans are people we know, cause they are from our Army.
     
  10. USMCPrice

    USMCPrice Idiot at Large

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    General Terauchi, the Dutch are really in an awkward situation, They are a government in exile, located in England. With the English acting as their hosts and sponsors, I do not think they have the leeway to make a separate agreement with us, if it is contrary to the wishes of the British government.
    Then if in the unlikely event that we could make a separate agreement with the Dutch. Without neutralizing Singapore, the Malayan peninsula and controlling the Straits of Malacca, England could control our ability to ship oil and fuel back to Japan from the DEI. They could cut our lifeline at any time they choose. If they were to reinforce, which they lack the capability to do at the moment due to other worldwide commitments, they would be hard to dislodge. Unlike the Philippines that can be isolated, Malaya and Singapore can be resupplied from the Indian Ocean side.
    I hope this clarifies why I believe we can't attack one without attacking the other.
     
  11. steverodgers801

    steverodgers801 Member

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    That is the question for the British can they afford to declare war on us, considering their situation. And with Palembang and Java we have additional bases for use against the British.
     
  12. SymphonicPoet

    SymphonicPoet Member

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    A question for those more familiar with the China problem:

    It has recently come to my attention that Chinese peasant farmers, upon moving to the coastal cities, have generally been denied access to education and services based upon some sort of residency requirements, and that they are unable to change their residence to these cities by law and custom. This gives me an idea: Might we use the promise of more lenient residency laws and better access to urban services as a lever to gain the support of at least some Chinese peasants?

    Essentially, would it behoove us to abolish the extant system of legally enforced peasantry? Could we do so? We would surely alienate many in the cities, but for the most part we have already done so, and if it would help us gain inroads into the countryside I should think it would be well worth it. Whatever the urbanites might think China's very soul belongs to her peasants. (As with all great empires. No farmers, no food.) And we can better contain and isolate problems in the cities than in the inland towns and villages.

    This would be no small undertaking, and it would in the long run create a stronger China, which could be a threat. But I cannot believe that we can conquer and hold China forever so a better goal might be to find a way to build a stable China that is relatively friendly to us. (Or perhaps several smaller independant states if such a thing could be engineered. Separate Canotonese, Shanghainese, and Han states, say. Is it written in stone in any language other than Mandarin that there must be one China? I don't believe Mandarin is at present widely spoken outside of the Han north and the coastal cities.)

    Sincerely,
    Noka Shijin
     
  13. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Ace

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    Good ideas, Admiral! There is no need to conquer the whole country. Its enough to get power over a part of it and the leader of that part.

    Sincerely,

    Field Marshal Nishio
     
  14. USMCPrice

    USMCPrice Idiot at Large

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    We definitely need to gain the support of the peasants Admiral, but I would caution you to be careful with the plan you have put forth because it may have unintended consequences. Your plan on the surface makes good sense from a humanitarian standpoint, but COIN (counter insurgency) operations are complicated and if you make an adjustment in one area you may disturb the socio-economic balance in another. To illustrate this I will point to an issue you raised later in your proposal.
    The reason the peasants are moving to the cities is to escape the fighting in areas controlled by our enemies or oppression by them. In areas we control, oppression by us, or lack of food because we or our opponents have destroyed or confiscated their agricultural production.
    People join or support the insurgency for a number of reasons: 1.) A small percentage due to ideological alignment 2.) Threats, beatings, murder etc. to keep them in line and to force their cooperation. 3.) In order to survive economically, if Chaing feeds them or provides them with money to help, and this is what allows them and their families to survive, they will aid him.
    If we allow these people that have fled from the farms to assimilate into the cities, we lose a significant amount of our agricultural production. We need them on the farms. If they are in the cities we will have to provide them with jobs, we will have to import additional food to feed them. Hungry, unemployed people with no prospects will turn to the opposition and we will destabilize the populations in our cities. I see that we need to address this problem from multiple fronts.

    1.) Provide the peasants with food and shelter until we can provide a stable environment in the countryside from which they came. Probably in a refugee camp.
    2.) Classify them so we know what usable skills they possess. Provide medical care and additional education in the democratic process, their chosen fields of endeavor, basic literacy education, and indoctrinate them with our vision of what the future of China holds. Keep them busy with these useful tasks, it helps pacify them.
    3.) Execute military operations to clear and secure an area, to eliminate enemy forces.
    4.) Return the peasants to this home area. Give them title to sufficient land to meet their sustenance needs plus a certain amount of surplus production. We also need to insure that all the necessary skill types are present in the villages to make them self-sufficient, farmers, carpenters, metal workers, etc. This will allow them to feel that they own the land/business they are working, the surplus will allow them to gain disposable income to improve their condition and to spend upon manufactured items from the cities.
    5.) We will allow them to elect their own village leaders and a village councils. We will have most of our official interactions with the people through these leaders.
    6.) We will patrol through each village at least weekly, delivering food and materials until they are up and running and get their first harvest in. Our unit medic will hold a sick call for the villagers and provide basic medical assistance. We will question the villagers as to their status, needs and what we can do to improve their lot.
    7.) Provide a law enforcement official to each village that reports to the provincial government. Appoint traveling magistrates to resolve legal issues.
    8.) After the first harvest they should be basically self sufficient. At this point we will prepare to withdraw our military forces both Japanese and Chinese. We need to give the male villagers basic military training, form them into a militia and arm them so they can defend their homes against outside aggressors, and to give the provincial government a force it can call upon to keep order in an emergency.
    Again if we allow these people to immigrate to the cities we will have three choices, feed them, let them starve or kill them. We cannot provide jobs for all, we will have food shortages, we will have massive unemployment and dissatisfaction with the government.

    If we play our cards right we can get relief organizations from neutral countries and the Vichy French to provide technical advisor's, teachers, clergy, engineers and doctors to support our efforts. We will be totally transparent in our operations and they can report back to their home countries our efforts to help the Chinese become a self-sufficient country.

    Yes we should abolish it and individual land ownership, voting rights, basic education, and a hope for a better economic future will allow for this. They will stay on the land and farm it, but to benefit themselves, not others.

    Most of the populace in the cities are also poor and downtrodden. Additional people to compete for scarce jobs and food shortages due to decreased agricultural production will exacerbate our problems in the cities. Increased food production will drive down the basic sustenance cost and lead to more disposable income for those employed in the cities. They buy the farmers products and the farmers buy the manufactured products from the cities. The economy will grow and prosper. In the cities we also need to come up with an economic plan. We need to increase manufacturing, educational opportunities, voting for city officials and councilmen, build hospitals and train medical personnel. I favor starting universities and educating those that show promise in advanced skills such as chemistry, medicine, engineering, architecture, etc.

    Perhaps in the long run they might become a threat, in the short run, the next couple decades or so, a strong China would benefit us. If we play our cards right and intertwine our economies, the economic self-interests of our peoples will bind us together.

    Here I fully agree, a Chinese Nation made up of semi-independent states/provinces whatever we want to call them is probably the best governmental structure for us to implement for China. I think if we re-build the country from the ground up, over the course of the decade it will probably take to make them a fully functioning, independent nation, we will probably manage to form a positive perception of ourselves in the Chinese population and friendship will probably develop.

    Other things I think need to be done.
    1.) Set up a national, judicial system with uniform laws.
    2.) Guarantee foreign ownership of businesses and resources within China. This will aid in getting foreign investment for development.
    3.) Develop a higher educational system to decrease dependency on foreign technical assistance.
    4.) Write strong, anti-political corruption legislation. There is a long history in China of those that come to power, even by popular acclaim, of using their power to enrich themselves and oppress the population.
    5.) Use captured enemy soldiers as labor to help with harvests and to improve the basic infrastructure, roads, bridges, etc.
    6.) Enact fair labor laws to protect the workers from exploitation.
     
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  15. steverodgers801

    steverodgers801 Member

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    Due to our food shortage we probably dont have the means to provide food for the populace, but the solution is to take a page from Mao and give the peasants the protection they need to provide for themselves and hopefully produce extra we can buy.
     
  16. USMCPrice

    USMCPrice Idiot at Large

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    Which is precisely why we must keep the populace on their farm land or return them there from the cities. At present we can feed them, if we have to by transporting food supplies around China or transferring them from Indo-China, Korea or Manchukuo. The great "breadbasket" of China must be kept, up and running and its output increased. Our clear and secure operations are aimed at doing what you suggested in your statement "take a page from Mao". Back in post #1455, General Nishi and myself discussed an example of security and clearing operations for China. This one in particular I called, "Operation ikatsui karite I (Operation Grim Reaper I)". We will hold a series of these operations in our rear-most areas to clear and secure an area of enemy activity. We will then patrol it to prevent re-infiltration. We give the peasants ownership of their land, provide them with security and the means to increase their food production, (teaching modern farming techniques, and providing superior cultivars), to supplement their traditional methods, and they're productive again. Fixing the countryside needs to be one of our first priorities, as you so correctly stated,
    . I can not stress too highly, that food shortages will destroy whatever progress we have made or will make, both in the countryside and the cities. Hungry people are rebellious people.

    Admiral Noka, I do believe that yourself, General Nishio and myself, all have a similar concept of what must be done. We only differ in some of the details.
     
  17. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Ace

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    I´m absolutely sure about that, Colonel. And we should work hard to get this actions placed soon to reach our targets. As you said: Hunger creates rebellions!
     
  18. SymphonicPoet

    SymphonicPoet Member

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    I think I can agree with more or less everything you have suggested. You are quite right, the last thing we need is a mass exodus to the cities. I would like to the system changed, but not at the cost of starvation and insurrection. To make lasting changes that will aid our long term goals of security and prosperity we will need to make whatever changes we implement gradually and with care. And Ikatsui Karite Ichi Go sounds like a solid plan. (Though I suggest a poetic name: perhaps Hatsuharu Go: Operation Spring Rains, or Wakaba Go: Operation New Leaves, or even Tachikaze Ichi Go: Operation Swordstroke Wind I.)
     
  19. belasar

    belasar Court Jester

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    I feel we must create a middle path between Gen. Terauchi's admirable sentiments for the welfare of the Chinese people and Col. Bobimoto's prudent concern's for the difficulties we face in keeping the peace.

    As for education, I would offer the suggestion that suitable Chinese who show a pro-Empire attitude be sent to the Home Islands and offered an exposure to modern ideas in medicine, hygene and basic administration (along with further pro Japanese doctrinal thought). Then to be returned to China and act as our 'agents of change'.

    As for Col. Bobimoto's concern's, perhaps we can exploit the natural fractures within Chinese society while appearing to offer solutions. If we set up other 'princeling's' like Pu Yi to act as 'national leaders' of various regions under our control. These 'nations' would be large enough to be administratively usefull to the goals of the Empire, yet weak enough politicly, economicly and militarily to pose no serious threat to our overall control.

    We can claim, with some justice, that decade's of European meddling has created so discordent a society that it is currently impossible for there to be a 'united China'. Something we have no desire to see in any event. We can always claim that a united and just Chinese people is our ultimate goal, but is realizable only in the far future and only after we have removed the taint of western colonialism which has fostered both communism and the warlord states that plauge Chinese society.

    A chorus of Chinese 'Nations' (along with outhers under our control) echoing our goals could have a benefitial effect on the world opinion towards us and possibly sway those elements within the Allied nations who would support a peacefull solution to the embargo or a negotiated end to any hostilities that redult from our efforts to end it.

    The Prime Minister
     
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  20. USMCPrice

    USMCPrice Idiot at Large

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    You are quite correct Admiral, I should not have chosen such an aggressive name for the operation. Words do have meaning and if/when the name and translation are published in the western newpapers it would have a negative connotation. Thank you. Perhaps if we're trying to give a name to demonstrate our intentions to the Chinese and westerners we could use Operation Hatsu Keimei (New Dawn).

    I would also like to ask you, and the others, if we dissolve the present Chinese government and establish a new one, what would be a good name for it?
     

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