Are Pistols Really Useless?

I am not going to buy off on that. While it is a well known fact that Ford was a bit of an Anti-Semite and went to some length to perpetuate Ford-Europe during the War, I can not find anything to support that Ford sent weapons to Germany.

Here is a picture of the SW M&P :


And here is an article out of a magazine that I found on S&W Forums. To summarize the fine print it appears that the pistol was ordered from Smith & Wesson through a firearms dealer in Hamburg, Henry Ford had nothing to do with it.

 

That makes sense. An angle I didn't think about. Thanks.

Greg C.

 

marc 780 is right. In Göring´s case it is for the reason that he was an old fashioned guy that knew that a Revolver will always work, not like the Lugers. And he liked the S&W very much it was the much better one than his Reichsrevolver.

Regards

Ulrich

 

Ulrich;
Well here is the one thing I do have in common with Hermann Goering-I am also a big Smith And Wesson revolver Fan-these ultralites are the absolute best!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdaEfdAFlME&feature=related
JeffinMNUSA

 

Jeff,

i have to admit that i own a special custom made S&W 686 and it is the best one i have. Fired more than 8000 rounds and never had a problem. Good Stuff!

Regards

Ulrich

 

I wouldn’t doubt that Mr. Lacey extrapolated that position after reading of Henry Sr.’s financial backing of Hitler and the Nazis early on in the life of both in the NY Times article of Dec. 20th, 1922: which includes these lines. He may have jumped to conclusions, or he may have simply figured that Hitler and the NSDAP used Ford's money to buy the pistols or something.

BERLIN, Dec. 10.-A rumor is current here that Henry Ford, the American automobile manufacturer, is financing Adolph Hitler's nationalist and anti-Semetic movement in Munich.

…Last Sunday Hitler reviewed the so-called Storming Battalion attached to his organization, numbering about 1,000 young men in brand new uniforms and all armed with revolvers and black-jacks, which, however, they carried concealed.

Goto:

Stock Maven® - Business and the Holocaust - Dec. 20, 1922 - BERLIN HEARS FORD IS BACKING HITLER

I was just wondering if that might be the "connection" between Goering and that S&W .38 Special.

 

I certainly wouldn't dicount that theory as being the nexxus of Mr. Lacey's account; however, the fine print in the article says :
".38 Special Smith & Wesson M&P model No. 642357 shipped to the Peter's Arms Co. of Hamburg from S&W on May 29, 1934". This is 12 years after the account in the article. So I would have to assume that Goering did not have this particular pistol at that time.

 

I am surely NOT disputing that, only that Ford was actively supporting the NSDAP in the twenties, and just perhaps it was that tie which stuck in Fat Herman's mind. A fondness for American products. But then again, as others noted, he was a sportsman and valued goo reliable weapons from all manufacturers. I believe he personally had both British and Italian weapons in his stockpile as well.

Maybe he just liked the reliablity of the wheelgun as made by S&W?

 

I am not trying to be argumentative either. I just can't find an online source that supports the ascerion that Ford sent revolvers to Germany. I don't think revolvers and sporting arms were limited by the Treaty of Versailles to the extent that would have prohibited purchasing such a firearm and/or having it shipped abroad.

 

No pistols aren't useless for personnel that have a need for one. Like any weapon, if the operator is trained and proficient in it's use, it is effective when used in situations it was designed to be employed in. Scout snipers are issued a pistol and I can assure you they are just as proficient and deadly with it as they are with their long gun. Special Operations Forces often carry a pistol as a back up and for use in situations where a pistol would be the weapon of choice. They train extensively in it's use and in cases where it is employed they utilize it in a very effective, efficient manner. As for WWII, one case that immediately comes to mind is John Basilone. On the night that he was awarded his MOH, in addition to killing hundreds of Japaneses soldiers with his machine guns, he also dispatched a number of enemy soldiers with his Colt M-1911 ACP. (Still my favorite pistol, reliable and if you hit the target they go down.)

I fail to see why you'd need to seperate modern usage from WWII usage. Modern military personnel in conventional units are basically issued a pistol for the same reasons they were issued one in WWII. Everyone wasn't issued a pistol then, everyone isn't issued a pistol now. If the billet the servicemember is assigned to rates a pistol now, more than likely the similar billet in WWII would also rate a sidearm. In the Marine Corps, billets rating an M-4 carbine now would probably rate an M-1 carbine then. The U.S. Army has pretty much adopted the M-4 carbine across the board even for billets that normally would rate a rifle, but that's another discussion.

The oldest son told me Iraqis are terrified of pistols. Apparently this was due to members of Saddam's regime frequently using pistols to execute people for transgressions real or imagined.
One day he was serving as a turret gunner, in a vehicle, in a convoy travelling down a major road. An Iraqi vehicle approaches from the rear side at a high rate of speed. The threat from VBIED's was great and he couldn't let it merge with the convoy. He fired several warning rounds from his .50cal at the car, tracers zipped past the Iraqi vehicle, the driver kept coming. He fired another burst, this time closer, the driver kept coming. The car was now fairly close to the convoy, Chris pulled his pistol, waved it around, fired two warning rounds near the car and the Iraqi freaked out. He veered sharply away from the convoy, left the road, bouncing across desert until he crashed into an depression. Pretty bad when a 9mm gets more attention than a .50cal.

 

I agree. plus pistols are good for spies to carry and assians. they are also good for close quarter areas. I love pistols, especially in viedo games. BTW, artillary men, jeep drivers and medics, were given M1 Carbines to give them better protection since they are in open areas they will need something with more fire power and range than a pistol.

 

police work, self protection, even enforcement of command. yes, pistols had wartime uses.

someone mentioned the .45 for hooch fighting in vietnam. i read the .45 was not very effective in the tunnels and neither were was the m-16 or the sawed-off shotgun. in fact, hooch fighters preferred the .38 revolver or the .32 puma automatic. that's why the army commissioned a private company to design a hooch firearm.

 

I read it quite a while back and suffered with pains im my sides for days from the laughing.

 

Which was ???

 

The pistol is perfect for them;

1/ it doesn't require a good free hand to lug about;

2/ it hangs on their person along with a small amount of ammo;

3/ when out of their natural environment and NEEDING a mere firearm - they're more concerned with making their opponents keep their heads down and stop shooting at THEM accurately....than they are in causing more casualties themselves!

 

What the heck is a 'hooch firearm'....never heard of such a creature

 

am in a hurry so you gentlemen can google it if you need to. the trouble with the hooches is they were dug out of sub-soil. 2 feet by 3 feet usually. using an m-16 or shotgun inside it gave off too much noise, flash and occasioned a cave-in (wonder how the ak-47 performed for the other side.) even the .45 was too laud and smokey which explains the preference for the .38 or the .32

so the army commissioned a private firm in the US given the above findings and this is what the firm came up with: a silent revolver firing buckshot. silent, not silenced. take a SW model 29 (.44 magnum.) cut the barell to just 1 1/2 inches. modify the frame to lengthen the cylinder. next re-bore both barell and cylinder to 0.50 caliber.

now about the cartidge. it's a sealed cartridge. casing is made of steel, not brass. and it runs nearly the full lenght of the cylinder (no head space for the slug.) the sealed cartidge works like this: when the pin strikes the primer, it ignites a small powder charge at the base of the casing. the expanding gas will push a steel piston directly above it. the piston will push buckshot that's sitting on it out of the cartridge mouth and through the barell. BUT the piston itself does not exit the cartridge. it is braked at the cartridge mouth by a thread and crimp. the expanding gasses will then bleed out slowly.

the result is you have a firearm that produces no flash, about as much noise as a stapler, and hardly any smoke. in fact it seems so inert that officers and sergeants had to show their men that it was a lethal weapon at short range. fire at a 3/4 inch plywood from 15 feet and all the buckshot pellets will go through the plywood.

 

I am going to call bull sh*t until you provide a source. I have "Googled" the stuffing out of 'Hooch Handgun' with absolutley no results that even come close to matching what you describe.
I think you may be confusing 'Hooch' with 'Tunnel Rat'