"Armchair" General - Change a Battle

Less recklessness and better management of operations post Stalingrad in the Spring 1943, so that the "Manstein's backhand blow" could be avoided and Karkhov-Bjelgorod stood in the right hands.

 

The German drive on Moscow during Barbarossa.

If the Germans had been successful the Russians would have been finished, IMHO.

 

REally? Why?

With all the eastern territory left, not too mention plenty of manufacturing industries...

 

I think this is a tough one to call, I think the significance of taking moscow can't be underestimated, yes they had the capaicty to reteat east, but the capital gone would have seriously demoralised the Russians at a critical stage in the war. Plus if it was intact The Germans would have had a great forward logistics area plus if they took Leningrad and Stalingrad I personnally think that it would have finished the soviets, regardless of how far east they could have gone.

(theres a can of worms RB!)

 

Capital gone? So what! Yet another reason to fight the Germans even harder! Plus if the Germans take Moscow in winter of 41 then they are bottled up in a city when their army is the least effective and with overextended supply lines. A soviet offensive in the spring of 42 could possibly cut off the Germans in Moscow and cause an early Stalingrad!

I think the loss of Moscow would just have caused the Russians to fight even harder. They had lost many proud cities and it never bothered them. They would resist to their last to free their motherland. Plus Stalin would still be firmly in control and the factories would be happily rolling out T-34s.

I cant see anything changing if they did take Moscow.

 

What the hell was the germans game plan then, to keep going until they reached the Pacific!

 

Probably.

But that is assuming they had a plan...

Dont foget they thought the USSr was just gonna crumble as they invaded...

 

Didn't they crumble?, 2 million prisoners in the first 6 months (something like that) The Germans defeated comprehensively any army trown at them. If they had taken Moscow, Lenningrad, in December 1941 They would not have suffered as many losses due to winter conditions and all soviet armies in the west would have been defeated. I think the Soviets may have sued for peace, given The Germans all of poland, Baltic states, Belarus, Cacacus, Ukraine, and liked their wounds. Germans would have been happy with that for the time being finished off the North Africia, waited for the Yanks!

 

Winter conditions?

There would not have been a building left standing in moscow if the Germans had taken it. Look at Stalingrad!

I think 'scarificed' may be a better description for those taken prisoner in the first few months. Stalins reluctance to withdraw and conduct a defence if depth had a lot to do with the encirclements.

As for Germans being beaten in 41, well they did get a bloody nose. Look at Sebastopol or the defence of Moscow.

I doubt the Soviets would have ever entertained any peace deal, possibly in the short term as long term the situation favoured the Soviets. Plus the country is just too damn big! Look at all the partisan trouble they had prior to Kursk. The Soviets also wanted to expand as much as the Germans.

 

Bloody nose is all the Germans got, the Russians had an amputation! whole armies were lost and had to be replaced by raw recruits, and conscripts from Mongola that had never seen an Airplane before if the Russians had not held the line at Moscow, Leningrad and Stalingrad where would they have held the line, furher East? And if so would the Germans had followed. Most of the German losses in 1941 1942 were through offensive operatioins, trying to take strategic locations. If these had been acheived they could have held a defensive line against the Russians?????

 

... (sorry)

[ 20. August 2004, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: Za Rodina ]

 

You're right, "If". And that's a big "If", coz they "didn't".

This kind of subject has been discussed to exhaustion take a look at the old threads in Russia at War, for instance
http://www.ww2forums.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=000104

 

As for those mongols... The Siberian units went through Germans like a hot knife through butter!

Sebastopol... Took the Germans months to crack it...

It doesnt matter if the Soviets lost 10 million, they still had more...

Not too mention the overstrecthed German supply chain, the acts of destruction by the partisans, the ever increasing skill of Soviet commanders...

And the Germans would have to go further East to close down Soviet production. Otherwise they would just face more T-34s...

 

Personally I think it would have been quite an interesting possibility to go for Moscow in Aug 1941 instead of Oct 1941. Instead of Kiev going for the Moscow. Of course this would have left a huge Red Army force on the flank but I do think the political effect of losing your capitol should not be underestimated. As well the Germans should have treated the locals better and form troops against Stalin which would have changed the situation in Germans´ favour.

On the Red Army attack in winter 1941-42 I wonder if Zhukov had had a free hand , how the German front had cracked as Stalin wanted a wide front attack. Making breakthroughs in German lines how far would Hitler have been forced to retreat? Or would the Germans lose it all by keeping their troops in line, and for example no AGC anymore...??

 

The taking of Moscow would give troops a warm place to sleep, even if buildings were crumbling, however one must realize that the flag, ( capital), can be transferred to Stalingrad or Leningrad. Just a thought. I did read that Stalin did put out peace feelers in late summer 42 when Germans had wiped out several armies & were headed to Stalingrad. Have no way unfortunately to confirm it. But a negotiated peace was Germany's best option if in fact it was a possibility.

 

A warm place to sleep? Just like Stalingrad...


Stalin alledgedly put out quite a few peace feelers at various times...

It would be interesting if we could list them all and see what events match them.

 

Definitely a warm place, to sleep no. If we follow the historical precedent, in the First Patriotic War (guess what this was) the Czar had Moscow evacuated and put to flames, so in 1812 Napoleon was able to take possession of an empty and "fiery" city, to retreat from shortly.

 

Near full focus on U-boat production (scrap the plans for the major Capital ships) 39-40 if not earlier.

 

Camz Would that not have just meant more U-boat casualties? Didn't Germany lose the war at sea, due to improved allied uboat hunting techniques and the capture of the enigma devise (as acurately told in the U571 film, (joking!))?

Interested to know how the Germans could have altered the War on the atlantic with more Uboats.

 

They could have produced the Hydrogen-Peroxide powered variant. Cud stay under water for long time I think...