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Aussie Soldiers fly Nazi flag

Discussion in 'Free Fire Zone' started by CAC, Jun 21, 2018.

  1. green slime

    green slime Member

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    I don't care what values some Oz grunt harbours. I don't care how sick his sense of humour, or what symbols he decorates his private quarters with, or what flags the KKK branch of the USMC thinks are appropriate to be associated with when taking group photos while in barracks

    But when the Oz soldier gets up, puts on his uniform and walks operational, he is representing the Australian nation and the Queen, and it is entirely inappropriate to prance about in uniform in the field bandying around any symbols of this nature. And yes, when an Australian Army soldier is operational, they are expected to behave like soldiers that all Australians can be proud of. ADF personnel in the field are expected to fulfill the Australian Public Service Values and Code of Conduct, as well as the ADF Values.

    From the Australian Defence Force Values:
    Integrity
    "Integrity is doing what is right. We behave honestly and ethically, and demonstrate the highest standards of probity in our personal conduct. We act fairly and accept personal responsibility for our decisions and actions. We build trust through productive working relationships. We do not allow mateship to be misused to cover up bad behaviour or bring the organisation into disrepute. Our actions clearly match our words."

    APS:
    8.1.1 Section 13(12) of the Public Service Act 1999 (PS Act) provides that an Australian Public Service (APS) employee on duty overseas must at all times behave in a way that upholds the good reputation of Australia.

    7.1.1 To uphold the Accountable Value and the Code of Conduct (the Code), Australian Public Service (APS) employees are required to use Commonwealth resources in a proper manner and for a proper purpose.

    7.2.4 Where there is no legislation, instruction or policy on a matter, employees should exercise good judgement to decide if a proposed use of Commonwealth resources is proper. They should ask themselves whether the action is of a kind that a reasonable person would agree was a proper use of Commonwealth resources.

    6.4.4 Wearing or displaying political material by an employee is generally inappropriate. It may give the impression that the agency endorses the political material. In some circumstances, it may create doubts in the minds of clients as to whether their queries or applications will be handled impartially.
    Flying a German National Socialist flag from an Australian Army vehicle while operational may safely be said to be "generally inappropriate," does not "uphold the good reputation of Australia" and "brings the organisation into disrepute."

    Alternatively, by Australian law, if it is OK to fly a swastika from a Australian Army vehicle in the Field then it is OK to fly such flags from Australian Federal Police cars.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
  2. JJWilson

    JJWilson Well-Known Member

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    I agree that it was inappropriate for the Australian soldiers to fly the flag, it's a decision I don't agree with, not because I'm afraid of offending people, but as you said Green, you are representing a nation and it's armed forces.
     
  3. USMCPrice

    USMCPrice Idiot at Large

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    Or they don't place the same emphasis on the symbols that civilians do, that it's part of the dark humor they indulge in to cope with the death and deprivation they deal with on a daily basis. They are also not "borrowing anyone's honor or glory", the use of these symbols more often than not has nothing to do with what they formally meant, but just because they look cool. In the Marine Corps case I can remember the use of the Afrika Korps symbol of palm tree with the Marine Corps emblem substituted for the swastika from as far back as the early eighties, for Marines stationed at 29 Palms (in the desert).

    [​IMG]

    (Obviously the Devil Dog in the foreground is expressing his white supremacist/neo-nazi ideology based upon the Afrika Korps type symbol on his armored vehicle. The Hispanic appearing Marine in the turret probably shares these attitudes.)​

    During the Gulf War other Marine Units adopted it's use. That continued for units operating in the desert up until some civilian noticed it, got butthurt, contacted their congress person, who jumped on the General because a constituent was uncomfortable over something they saw. How dare those Marines do something that makes Joe Limp D*ck uncomfortable, how dare you display that symbol, you need to go about your killing of those people we sent you to kill without upsetting the Mall Rats and video gamers. Well somebody noticed it in Iraq and they made the Marines stop using the symbol, it had nothing to do with admiring Rommel, or honoring the Afrika Korps or the Nazis, it just looked cool and showed you were operating in the desert. BTW, the British do it too.

    [​IMG]

    Same-same with the SS runes, they looked cool, the meaning attributed to them by the Marines was Scout-Sniper, I doubt if very many knew their actual origin. It had nothing to do with admiring or wanting to emulate the SS, or white supremacy or neo-nazis, all it meant was the initials for Scout Sniper and runes are cool. Just ask KISS, they used similar runes:

    [​IMG]
    Those darned SS runes again!​

    They (the Scout Sniper runes) had been used since at least the late 70's until someone saw that picture of the Marines in Sangin and got their panties in a wad. It doesn't matter that we're asking them to break the ultimate taboo, killing another human, how dare they have something that "I" interpret as "Nazi" on their flag? Screw what their intent was, it only matters what "I" think it means. Bart Simpson was also a popular image adorning military items and flags during Desert Storm and the "Punisher" comic book character skull is really big now. You think it's because they admire their combat record or ideology?
    The most important thing is that some limp d*ck do gooder, that sits feeding his fat face in front of the idiot box, stands up for nothing, is unwilling to put his life and comfort at risk for a greater good, and has no concept of sacrifice, gets his panties in a wad and some sand in his nether regions because he sees something that reminds him of something that makes him uncomfortable. I can tell you, the combat dudes could care less what he thinks. It doesn't matter what the symbol means to the dudes risking their lives, it only matters that it makes the spoiled, sheltered, butthurt civilian uncomfortable that he came across it. They need to rub some vagasil on the swelling, take a couple of Midol and get over it.

    Green Slime wrote:
    You don't know what meaning they place upon the symbol, I'd bet the farm it had nothing to do with Nazi's or the KKK, guess you're projecting your own prejudices upon them. The photo wasn't taken in or at a barracks, it was taken in Sangin Afghanistan during September 2010, in the most dangerous place in Afghanistan during the height of the fighting there. The Marines were with 1st Recon Bn and they killed so many Taliban and Taliban supporters that the "tribes" came over to our side. They got tired of being killed by the "black Diamonds", a name given them by the Taliban.

    All this being said, I wouldn't have chosen to fly that flag the Aussies flew, I cannot imagine what they were thinking when they did, what I am fairly certain of is that they most likely did not ascribe to it the same meaning everyone here has. I don't feel I have adequate information or the right to ascribe my perceptions of the flag upon them. They're in the middle of bad guy country and might have been dead or wounded by evening. They're there because we asked them to go to keep us safe. In my book they rate the benefit of a doubt.
     
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  4. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    About time someone who knows what the f..k they are talking about spoke up...
     
  5. wooley12

    wooley12 Active Member

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    I'm in the Seattle area, home to a dozen or so billionaires and 1000's of multimillionaires. A lot of them are smart at capitalism and dumb.at most everything else.
     
  6. wooley12

    wooley12 Active Member

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    My best friend and his Marine pals posed a dead Viet Cong at the entrance to their hooch for a while so he told me. The front of the front is surreal from what I have read and heard.
     
  7. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    With respect how do you know they are ‘dumb at most everything else’?

    Simply put dumb people don’t do well in life financially...or with many other things in life...and of course there are exceptions to everything...a few examples doesn’t change this.
     
  8. wooley12

    wooley12 Active Member

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    Ok my sense of "everything else' is perhaps an overstatement. No smarter than anyone else in many would be more accurate. Some dumber than others. Now I think it's dumb to sue the local board to lower the taxes on your lakeside estate because geese are fouling your lawns. I think it's dumb for a billionaire to ask his landscaper to repair rather than replace his lawn irrigation system. Just my experiences. I've known a few and seen a few the "rich" that I would say are somewhere on the spectrum of idiot savant. IMO
     
  9. wooley12

    wooley12 Active Member

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    Back to the the nazi flag thing. At the battle front and in 2010 is not like today. Today the subject of what is appropriate with flags is a lot more of the news and weaponized. There have been comparisons with nazis and the current administration, something I never thought that I would see. My wife had a cousin in the SS and lost on the Eastern Front but I could never see us having his flag around to honor him. Maybe he was one of the good ones. :)
     
  10. green slime

    green slime Member

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    Because obviously, Australian law doesn't.
     
  11. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    So true...
     
  12. green slime

    green slime Member

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    Don't care about altered symbols. Altering the symbol alters the meaning of the symbol. Removal of the swastika means it isn't the Afrika Korps symbol...

    Except it still wasn't the Afrika Korp symbol...
    KISS can do whatever they like; they're not representing the nation state or the Queen.

    USMC are not subject to Australian law, do not need to uphold Australian Defence Force Values when overseas. USMC can adhere to their own standards.

    Bart Simpson and Punisher are fictitious characters. They're not responsible for millions of deaths.
    I don't care where, or what USMC does. "My prejudices," is that symbols are important, that they are used because they are clearly understood.

    The official story is the historically illiterate devil dogs thought they are S’s and looked cool. If you choose to believe that.

    The unit's commander decided not to proceed with disciplinary action, it said, but all Marines in the unit were reminded that such behavior will not be tolerated and any further display could result in punishment.
    "They determined that the Marines in the photo were ignorant of the connection of this symbol to the Holocaust and monumental atrocities associated with Nazi Germany," Amos said in his statement Friday.
    The Marines involved were made to take a formal instructional class, however, so that they fully understood the historical use of the SS symbology, he said.
    "I want to be clear that the Marine Corps unequivocally does not condone the use of any such symbols to represent our units or Marines," Amos said.
    CNN

    Amos being the then USMC Commandant, General James Amos.

    That line of doubt ceases well before flying the German National Socialist flag off an Australian Army vehicle.

    Some feel the need to argue it was OK, and don't fathom why large sections of the public feel disappointed. Claiming that the risks we ask them to take, somehow grants them permission to behave poorly, doesn't add up. We ask them to go, precisely because we hold them to a higher standard. The actions of those few, harm the public's perception of the Australian Army. There is no pride to be found in that flag. When some try to insult the public about "getting their knickers in a knot," or "lacking a sense of humour," it just shows how little they understand the level of disappointment generated. Denials and half-hearted excuses just lack integrity.

    It was inappropriate. They were disciplined. No need for further debate. Don't make excuses for them.
     
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  13. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    What country do you live in? Here in the US, Reagan, Bush I & II, and Obama admins were all compared to Nazis several times. Not sure about Clinton's...
     
  14. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana WW2|ORG Editor

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    Yep, character assassination is part and parcel of US politics.
     
  15. wooley12

    wooley12 Active Member

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    I live in the USA. The last election made character assassination the #1 campaign message by one of the candidates. who proclaimed that he could assassinate someone personally in the middle of the street if he so desired. I thought that was a new low. Many other citizens liked the idea.
     
  16. USMCPrice

    USMCPrice Idiot at Large

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    Which just means that is your standard for what is acceptable, the fact is they were forced by some in the public that complained to cease using the symbol. They inferred that it was paying homage to WWII Germany and heaven forbid we offend anyone.

    There is no doubt that many knew that the runes were similar to the SS symbol, however it is also clear that that is not the meaning those Marines attributed to it. The runes had been in use by the Scout-Sniper community for at least 33 years before anyone raised a stink about it. Those snipers knew it had been in use by Scout-Snipers for decades. Now since you said, "Altering the symbol alters the meaning of the symbol.", why don't those Marines get a pass? The runes are displayed on a blue background when typically the SS symbol was on a black background. Further, in Younger Futhark Norse runes (which resemble the symbol more closely than the proto-Germanic version) the rune corresponds to the letter "S". So I guess you need to decide who is historically illiterate, the "Devil Dogs" who used a Norse Rune for the letter "S" to abbreviate Scout-Sniper or someone who infers that the symbol is in homage to the SS. I can tell you that combat soldiers are big into ancient Norse warrior culture, mythology and customs. I can't tell you how many times I've heard the expression "till Valhalla brother," used.



    Not making excuses and I do not lack integrity, I just know that before you form a judgement you need to understand the whole story. They may be idiots and/or Neo-Nazis, or it may have just been a joke among mates that got blown out of proportion by people that took offense to something they did not understand. Having spent many years among those types, in those type situations, I still say and do things that an outside observer would be offended by, but is interpreted differently by those I'm actually interacting with.
     
  17. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana WW2|ORG Editor

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    Had to dig out the pictures. Maybe I'll post some.
     
  18. green slime

    green slime Member

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    Not all comments were aimed at you. Primarily, I'd not accuse you of a lack of integrity. That comment was aimed at 'mate,' still unable to grasp that it's more than a "lack of humour" that gives rise to public disappointment. So forgive my sloppiness in that regard.

    While someone is not representing the Queen or Her Majesty's Government, they get to say or do a whole shitload of things that are not appropriate. If someone wants to fly the Nazi flag, there are plenty of other organisations outside of Her Majesty's Services that accommodate that kind of behaviour.

    I still do not care what the USMC chooses to do or not do. Thread is about the behaviour of an Australian unit, not the USMC. It is noted however, that USMC Commandant didn't defend the use of that particular unit's choice of symbol.

    ADF clearly states what is expected, as shown in post #21 of this thread.

    A German National Socialist flag was flown on an Australian Army vehicle, by supposedly professional volunteers representing Australia while on foreign service. Whichever way you cut it, it was inappropriate, against the values of the ADF and APS. They were disciplined, and rightly so.
     
  19. USMCPrice

    USMCPrice Idiot at Large

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    I respect your opinion, and your right to express it. I do not share it so we will have to agree to disagree.
    I said earlier, I can't imagine any situation where I'd fly that flag, but I wasn't in their shoes, nor knew what they intended when they flew it. They might have needed to be disciplined if they were Neo-nazis or such, but if it was an inside joke, a don't do it again would suffice.
    As for Amos, probably the worst commandant in Marine Corps history. He went a long way towards destroying the culture and esprit that makes them what they are. He was the first "Air Wing" commandant and really didn't appear to understand the ground side. Commandants are normally treated with utmost respect, like gods sent down from Olympus. They used to dog Amos because he didn't rate a CAR (Combat Action Ribbon), even when he held town halls to try and figure out why the Corps was hemorrhaging it's combat veterans. The NCO corps ETS'ed in droves during his tenure. He lacked the leadership traits usually found in our Commandant, but was a real politicians General. I really have no respect for his opinion. Fortunately he was followed by a real Marines Marine Joe Dunford and now by Robert Neller, who have restored what Amos almost wrecked.
     
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  20. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    The "SS" symbol, as has been mentioned on previous threads, used by Southern States farm coops is also very similar to the Nazi "SS" symbols but predates them by at least a few years. I think they may have rounded them a bit in recent years though.
     
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