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Bismarck vs USS Iowa

Discussion in 'Ships & Shipborne Weaponry' started by JimboHarrigan2010, Aug 29, 2011.

  1. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    From what I've seen discussed over on KBismarck the German fire control radars were essentially on a par with US fire control radars of the same period. The problem for the Germans in this regard seems to lie in the lack of reduncancy and the US doctrine which encouraged long range engagements. I'm not sure if the either combatant carried radar jammers which might have considerable impact on this.
     
  2. Gromit801

    Gromit801 Member

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    The Bismarck was sunk before the Iowa touched water. So many liberties must be taken to compare the two in a hypothetical fight. We must say the Bismarck was at her technological height in May of 1941. So even if you were to use the Iowa's technology when she joined the fighting fleet in August, 1943, she still had a superior radar, fire control and weaponry.
     
  3. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Then use Tirpitz. Of course the North Carolinas were commissioned before Bismarck was sunk.
     
  4. JimboHarrigan2010

    JimboHarrigan2010 Member

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    interesting choice, tirpitz is of the same class
     
  5. Gromit801

    Gromit801 Member

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    Well, the OP used the Bismarck. But fine, the Tirpitz.

    Tirpitz sunk in the North Atlantic instead of Kafjord.
     
  6. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Ace

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    Nice that you won´t think the Tirpitz could have a chance!
     
  7. JBark

    JBark Member

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    I was shown a website by a member of another forum a few years back that offered comparisons of major BB's of Japan, Germany, France, Britain, US and Italy. The US was entered twice with the Iowa and South Dakota as contenders for the throne. Iowa was the winner, hands down and the S. Dakota not far behind. The site rated each on guns, armor, fire control, secondary armament, AA batteries, etc. The Bismarck had some good features but was edged out by even the Richelieu (how do you spell that?...and my wife is French-lol.) Statements on this site indicated that our fire control was superior to all combatants at any time in the war.
     
  8. Gromit801

    Gromit801 Member

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    You shouldn't alter a quote.

    And no, the Tirpitz wouldn't have a chance. She came close to meeting the USS Washington in 1942, and that would have been Tirpitz last voyage if they had come to grips.
     
  9. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Ace

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    That wasn´t bad meant with the quote and it doesn´t made senseless trash out of it.

    Technical facts are funny to compare the, but not the only important facts! There were more cases where the so called better BB´s, aircrafts, tanks and so on, were outnumbered by much older and simpler opponents.
     
  10. syscom3

    syscom3 Member

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  11. freebird

    freebird Member

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    They had ample time to study real battle data from Taranto, Matapan, Crete, & Bismarck sortie between Aug '40 -mid '41, and make improvements before launch in Aug '42.
    Certainly the AA & radar were improved from '40 - '43

    Bismarck has no chance - based on what exactly?

    I would agree, although Iowa vs B might be 70/30, while N Car vs B would be a toss up.

    Why? To favor the ships that came out later?

    I agree.
    That's why a Bismark vs N Carolina in the summer of '41 would be a better match


    Also, let's not forget that some battleships had significant problems on their first voyage, before assuming that battleship "x" would have an advantage with gunnery or fire control.

    Prince of Wales lost both quad turrets on the Bismarck engagement due to jamming/engineering problems
    North Carolina had severe vibration problems initially
    South Dakota had a major electrical problem at Guadalcanal that reportedly took the guns & radar offline.

    If you roll into battle and have a major SNAFU you could be in a world of hurt.
     
  12. TiredOldSoldier

    TiredOldSoldier Ace

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    The Germans stopped heavy ship development so the Tirpitz is not that much more advanced than the Bismark, there was not much investment in surface gunnery radar though AA was a priority (always assuming the LW and KG shared data), Germany was not a signatory of the Washington Naval treaties, did the the Anglo-German treaty have ship class limitations?
    As to the every effort to stay within the 35.000t limit we must then conclude the designers were totally incompetent as they missed the mark by 10%, also US official displacements are suspect, the difference between "standard" and "full" should be equal to the fuel and engine water and it doesn't match with published bunkerage, one should be careful not to compare different "tonns" there is a small diffference (though between long and metric it's not big).
     
  13. syscom3

    syscom3 Member

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    The only design improvements the Iowa class had during construction was to give them more AAA and associated fire control. Internal improvements to improve damage control and fire fighting would have been included just from the USN's own experience. But that wasn't extensive. Just normal run of the mill modifications that were easy to implement. Keep in mind though, there never was any extensive changes of the classes main design.
     
  14. Gromit801

    Gromit801 Member

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    PoW was rushing into the fight while still essentially on her shakedown cruise.
    NC had problems fixed.
    SD's electrician's mate tied down the circuit breakers, a breach of procedure. One hit caused them all to pop.
     
  15. ULITHI

    ULITHI Ace

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    Ummm, anyone know where T.A. Gardner is? I've been comming back to this thread hoping he put his two cents in. Like to hear what he thinks.
     
  16. freebird

    freebird Member

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    Not bound by the 35,000 as far as I can see.

    They ignored the 35,000 limit and built as it suited them.


    Yep.

    And suppose that he did that during a Bismarck vs SD matchup?

    Indeed, but not in May of '41, when a Bismarck vs NC might take place.
    You havn't explained why you think Bismarck has no chance vs NC.
     
  17. ickysdad

    ickysdad Member

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    Yes Germany was bound by the 35K limit since the Anglo-German Naval Treaty restricted Germany to the same treaties that the UK was forced to follow. I also don't see where US displacements were suspect,anyways at least the US & UK paid lip service to the treaties which is more then you can say about the RM, KM, and IJN.

    Just read sections 2d & 2g in the link below.


    http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-089_Anglo_German_Agreement_1935.htm
     
  18. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    ickysdad,

    Your forgetting one of the "escalator" clauses, Article 25. It was agreed between the remaining parties, during 1938, to up the standard displacement of a battleship to 45,000 tons.

    So the Bismarck was well within the current treaty limits from 1938 onwards.


    Gromit801,

    The Bismarck experienced trouble with her radars during her first/last mission too.
     
  19. ickysdad

    ickysdad Member

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    No the Bismarck was laid down on July 1,1936 & the Tirpitz on October 1,1936 . In fact both the Washington & London Naval Treaties didn't expire till December 31,1936. They were designed and laid down as non-treaty compliant ships. The Germans knew full well they weren't treaty compliant when they designed & laid them down.

    AS an example if the US had laid down the Iowa class on 1/1/1937 before the escalator clause was invoked they would have been non-treaty compliant ships. In fact I think the North Carolina's were held up because of the switch from 14" to 16" guns involving invoking escalator clause because of Japan's refusal to continue per the same.

    So n o the escaator clause doesn't give the Bismarck/Tirpitz any wriggle room here.
     
  20. Gromit801

    Gromit801 Member

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    And suppose the engagement happened at night where the superior radar fire control on the US ship would pretty much decide the outcome? Take a scenario and twist the rules to suit one side makes a comparison worthless.

    North Carolina class had better radar, fire control, and weaponry. Longer range and heavier broad side. In the engagement against the Kirishima, using radar, the Washington had her cold, possibly hitting with the first salvo. Armor protection is something of a wash, but the US ship would be firing first (day or night) from greater range, and accuracy. The Bismarck survived her first encounter with the RN because of a phenomenally lucky shot against the Hood, but she took damage as well from the PoW with her 14" guns, and it actually started the train of events that sealed the fate of the Bismarck, by puncturing a bunker.

    German battleship design had notoriously weak sterns as well, so their ships, while well armored, had more than a few weak design points.
     

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