Bombing of Dresden--and for what?

Now that I didn't know or had forgotten, cheers Redcoat.

I imagine in the same way that people justify the use of the a-bomb as it scared the rooskies. Still a benefit, if not an intended one.

 

Dresden was a major a rail junction and therefore a legitimate target. What concerns me is after reading, not all, but most of these posts, why is there surprise that war is awful and that civilians would be killed. Since London was bombed wouldn't then German cities be targeted by Bomber Command?

Who started the war? Did Britain invade Germany? As for loss, it is sad that someone lost their relatives, but maybe their loss was not in vain, as neither Britain, Germany or the US have been at war with each other in over 60 years and why? because it was so devastating. Sometimes war is inevitable and necessary, but we should never be surprised by its consequences.

 

Bombing of Dresden is little know.
With over 100,000 civilian deaths it was worse than
Hiroshima or Nagasaki.
It is shame that the allied bombed that city.
The war was already lost by the Germans.
MAD BOMBER LeMay wanted to experiment....

Mike the bike

 

Quite naive....always think of this line by James Mason

"We fight to win Otto"

There is no chivalry in war, when attacked you win or die. Americans knew war to be a brutal necessity once, read anything about the Civil War especially General Sherman. The English burned Washington in 1814, but we don't whine about it. It was war. What is important to note was that this period of history, WWII, we see technology more and more making it easier for men to kill each other. Easier to pull a bomb lever than to bayonet a child, Easier to send some innocents to a room with ZB than to stare down the barrel of a rifle and and squeeze the trigger....War is harsh, unbearable and viscious, as it should be, so that we don't have it and trade with each other rather than kill.

Monsieur Michel Ouellette, visit Oradour-sur-Glane and if you have the resources, Auschwitz-Birkenau and you will know why Dresden was bombed.
Hitler made an awful crime on Germany's children, many Germans today still suffer from guilt and remorse. Let us hope that Europe remains peaceful, yet keeps a shield and watchful eye on the latest extremist threat.

"You will not like me, but the more you hate me, the more you will learn." an appropriate statement by a favorite son of the Corps.

 

Oui(pronounced way) c'est vrai, mon ami

 

Er...the Allies hadn't even crossed the Rhine.....

 

Found this today about two reports done by the US on the aftermath of the raid
It worth reading

Marshall inquiry

An inquiry conducted at the behest of the U.S. Secretary of War, General George C. Marshall, found that the raid was justified by the available intelligence. The inquiry declared that the elimination of the German ability to reinforce a counter-attack against Marshall Konev's extended line or, alternatively, to retreat and regroup using Dresden as a base of operations, were important military objectives. As Dresden had been largely untouched during the war due to its location, it was one of the few remaining functional rail and communications centres. A secondary objective was to disrupt the industrial use of Dresden for munitions manufacture, which American intelligence believed to be the case. The shock to military planners and to the Allied civilian populations of the Nazi counter attack known as the Battle of the Bulge had ended speculation that the war was almost over, and may have contributed to the decision to continue with the area bombardment of German cities.[95]
The inquiry concluded that by the presence of active German military units nearby, and the presence of fighters and anti-aircraft within an effective range, Dresden qualified as "defended".[4] By this stage in the war both the British and the Germans had integrated air defences at the national level. The Germans national air-defence system could be used to argue — as the tribunal did — that no German city was "undefended".
Marshall's tribunal declared that no extraordinary decision was made to single out Dresden (e.g. to take advantage of the large number of refugees, or purposely terrorize the German populace). It was argued that the intent of area bombing was to disrupt communications and destroy industrial production. The American inquiry established that the Soviets, pursuant to allied agreements for the United States and the United Kingdom to provide air support for the Soviet offensive toward Berlin, had requested area bombing of Dresden in order to prevent a counter attack through Dresden, or the use of Dresden as a regrouping point after a strategic retreat
U.S. Air Force Historical Division report


U.S. Air Force Historical Division report


A U.S. Air Force table showing the amount of bombs dropped by the Allies on Germany's seven largest cities during the war.[4]



Table showing the amount of explosives dropped on Dresden during WWII.


A report by the U.S. Air Force Historical Division (USAFHD) analyzed the circumstances of the raid and concluded that it was militarily necessary and justified, based on the following points:[4]

1. The raid had legitimate military ends, brought about by exigent military circumstances.
2. Military units and anti-aircraft defenses were sufficiently close that it was not valid to consider the city "undefended."
3. The raid did not use extraordinary means but was comparable to other raids used against comparable targets.
4. The raid was carried out through the normal chain of command, pursuant to directives and agreements then in force.
5. The raid achieved the military objective, without excessive loss of civilian life.

The first point regarding the legitimacy of the raid depends on two claims: first, that the railyards subjected to American precision bombing were an important logistical target, and that the city was also an important industrial centre.[4] Even after the main firebombing, there were two further raids on the Dresden railway yards by the USAAF. The first was on March 2, 1945, by 406 B-17s, which dropped 940 tons of high-explosive bombs and 141 tons of incendiaries. The second was on April 17, when 580 B-17s dropped 1,554 tons of high-explosive bombs and 165 tons of incendiaries.[4]
As far as Dresden being a militarily significant industrial centre, an official 1942 guide described the German city as "one of the foremost industrial locations of the Reich" and in 1944, the German Army High Command's Weapons Office listed 127 medium-to-large factories and workshops which supplied the army with material.[17] Dresden was the seventh largest German city and by far the largest unbombed built-up area left and thus was contributing to the defense of Germany itself.[97]
According to the USAFHD, there were 110 factories and 50,000 workers supporting the German war effort in Dresden at the time of the raid.[4] These factories manufactured aircraft components, Anti-aircraft guns, field guns and small guns, poison gas, optical components (Zeiss Ikon A.G., Germany’s largest optics manufacturer), gears and differentials, electrical and X-ray apparatus, electric gauges, gas masks, Junkers aircraft engines, and Messerschmitt fighters cockpit parts.[98][4]
The second of the five points addresses the prohibition in the Hague Conventions, of "attack or bombardment" of "undefended" towns. The USAFHD report states that Dresden was protected by antiaircraft defenses, antiaircraft guns and searchlights, under the Combined Dresden (Corps Area IV) and Berlin (Corps Area III) Luftwaffe Administration Commands.[4]
The third and fourth points say that the size of the Dresden raid — in terms of numbers, types of bombs and the means of delivery — were commensurate with the military objective and similar to other Allied bombings. On February 23, 1945, the Allies bombed Pforzheim and caused an estimated 20,000 civilian fatalities; a raid on Tokyo on March 9–10 caused civilian casualties over 100,000. The tonnage and types of bombs listed in the service records of the Dresden raid were comparable to (or less than) throw weights of bombs dropped in other air attacks carried out in 1945. One contributing factor to the large loss of life in Dresden was the lack of preparation for the effects of air-raids by Gauleiter Martin Mutschmann, as the city did not expect to be bombed.[61] When Braunschweig was bombed on nights of October 14 and 15, 1944, hochbunkers and well trained fire fighters saved 23,000 people from death in a firestorm. In the case of Dresden, as in many other similar attacks, the hour break in between the RAF raids was a deliberate ploy to attack the fire fighters and rescue crews.[99]
In late July 1943, the city of Hamburg was bombed in Operation Gomorrah by combined RAF and USAAF strategic bomber forces. Four major raids were carried out in the span of 10 days, of which the most notable, on July 27-28, created a devastating firestorm effect similar to Dresden's, killing approximately 40,000 people. Two thirds of the remaining population reportedly fled the city after the raids.[100]
The fifth point is that the firebombing achieved the intended effect of disabling the industry in Dresden. It was estimated that at least 23% of the city's industrial buildings were destroyed or severely damaged. The damage to other infrastructure and communications was immense, which would have severely limited the potential use of Dresden to stop the Soviet advance. The report concludes with:

The specific forces and means employed in the Dresden bombings were in keeping with the forces and means employed by the Allies in other aerial attacks on comparable targets in Germany. The Dresden bombings achieved the strategic objectives that underlay the attack and were of mutual importance to the Allies and the Russians.
​

 

Nice Bomber Harris quote:

Cheers,
Adam.

 

Thank you for putting a bit of perspective on that Adam.

I feel that there have been too many hiding behind Bomber Harris....

 

Ok i can understand the Allies bombing Dresden's Marshalling Yards i have no problem, it hindered the movement of the Army. But where does it seem justifiable to bomb the civillian area with incediaries, this type of mission was to kill civillians and nothing more, but it is amazing that the worst attrocity in the war insofar as civillians killed was the US incendiay attack on Tokyo something like 110,000 killed, the USAAF deliberately targeted the old quarter of Tokyo where nearly all of those structures were made out of highly immflammible material and so was a desirable target, both Dresden and Tokyo were nothing but an exercise in mass murder.

But they were German and Japanese so who really cares, and i'll finish off by say.

To attack and kill civillians at 28 thousand feet and not having the guts to look into the eyes of a child you are attempting to burn to death is an act of cowardice.

 

Very good points in all of this. I just read a book about the Chechen war called "The Dirty War" by Anna (?) Politikovskaya. I recommend you all read it, it is heart rending in many ways.

If you read this book you will see why she was asassinated, she pointed a finger at some of the vilest scum on the planet. She had the courage to name names.

War is dirty and filthy, its disgusting but not so near as disgusting as the people who start them. We can argue the right and wrong all we like but it will never change until we start to punish the people who have interest in conflicts and those that create the conditions that bring such things about.

 

A picture is worth a thousand words. There is no chivalry in war. When war is thrust upon you you fight to win. The enemy had a chance to surrender and chose not to do so. Their opponent chose to use a little more persuasion and succeeded. As I have said before Germany, Japan, America, Britain, Italy and France for that matter, have all not been at war with each other in over 60 years.

 

Personally I find "funny" that things like vengeance weapons ( v1 etc ) and city bombings were considered more potential in ending the war than destroying important key factories for war material production. So far I consider most top level decisions on both sides on this totally stupid and the only ones who suffered were the civilians and own soldiers, really, on both sides. But war is war.

I have certain respect for mr Bomber Harris for turning the tide, but at some point he should have realized he was sticking to a plan that was not doing that much good any more to the Allied war effort.

 

So what was Hiroshima and Nagasaki in terms of civillians, a cake walk?, however I do agree with you, you cant target civillians in any war/action. people will die that is war, and the american figured they would lose a lot of men invading the japanese mainland, but that dosn't give them the right to drop atomic bombs on cities, why not on military targets such as japans defenses, instead of terror bombing cities, why not destor ythe moral of the army by destroying there defense's, tanks and airfields. It would have been D-Day at japan - "fortress Japan".

 

Before making such bold assertions please could you bear in mind that this Forum has veteran members who participated in these 'acts of cowardice'.

 

This is why I think that the Dresden threads should be avoided. A heated argument can quickly spiral out of control. Let's all take a deep breath before posting eh? eacekeeper:

 

Unfortunately i have to say I would have use those atomics on Japan, I would never condemn 600 to 700 thousand of my troops to die to invade Japan if it mean dropping two atomics, i am very hypocritical in this stance this i can't avoid.

To Martin Bull

Yes i was wrong to say cowardice, an extreme poor choice of wording on my part, i am truely sorry. And i further retract that quote unresevedly.

 

Thank you for realizing that, von R.

In my opinion, we can discuss whether the strategy was morally wrong ( personally, as I have got older I have become much uneasier with the concept of the wholesale bombing of civilians ).

But I don't think that any of us here have the right to criticize the individuals whose societies called on them to carry out such actions. Among my own acquaintances are a man who flew more than two 'tours' with Bomber Command and another whose duty it was to stalk the night sky, trying to kill the first man.

Both have my unreserved admiration, and I am very glad that I've never had to face the terrors which they did in their youth.

I don't mean the above to sound pompous, but it's an important point to me.