Bombing of Dresden--and for what?

The doctrine was area bombing. It wasn't aimed at killing civilians, but rather destroying the city, and with it all the functions of the ciy (production, transport etc).

The Germans were the first to implement the idea. At Coventry, for example, the orders, whilst also specifying military targets, noted that reconstruction and resumption of manufacturing activities would "be hindered by wiping out the most densely populated workers settlements".

An example of the effects is Blohm und Voss at Hamburg. The shipyard was hardly damaged in the raid that destroyed so much of Hamburg. However, production was heavily affected.

9400 workers normally turned up every day at Blohm und Voss. On the day after the main firestorm, 300 turned up for work. On the 1st August, 3 days after the firestorm, 1,500 reported for work. On the 1st September, more than a month after, 5,000 were back at work. On the 1st October it was 7,000, on 1st November 7,500, still nearly 2,000 below the pre raid level. Between 20 and 27 less U boats were built, not due to damage to the yards, but because of damage to the city as a whole.

That figure was repeated all over Hamburg. Middlebrook in The Battle of Hamburg has a table showing the number of workers in war industries in Hamburg. On 30th June, a month before the raids, 634,000 people were employed by the armaments industries in Hamburg.

On 1st October, 2 months after the raids, the figure had fallen to 331,300, a reduction of nearly 48%.

It wasn't because the workers were all killed, about 3% of the population of Hamburg died. The workers simply fled the city, because they had no housing, food was hard to find, and they were frightened of another attack.

The doctrine behind area bombing was that poor accuracy made it hard to hit individual targets, and that by bombing the city, you damaged all the functions of the city.

That's why all sides adopted area bombing.

Well, like the other bomber leaders, he recognised that a mix of targets was the best option. 1943 was the year BC concentrated on area bombing, with 131,000 of the 157,000 tons they dropped aimed at German cities.

But by 1944 the changing situation and increased accuracy meant that far less than half of BC tonnage was aimed at German cities, 185,000 out of 526,000 tons. That pattern continued in 1945, with 66,000 out of 182,000 tons aimed at German cities.

Few people realise that BC dropped more tons on oil targets than the 8th AF (although not as much as the 8th and 15th combined).

 

Im sorry I even started the thread to begin with. At that time, I knew it would be controversial even though I was making the original post because of recently watching a documentary on: The History Channel. This topic is like that Energizer Bunny, it keeps going, and going and going and going and........

How about we find that old thread I started on which was about: The Malmedy Massacre? That one had much truth! and "punch" to it.

 

This one, Carl? If so, please make a post there so we can ressurrect it

http://www.ww2f.com/wwii-general/9334-malmedy-massacre-massacre.html

 

Just on this part, why do people keep saying the 'energizer bunny'?

Its the Energizer battery

And the Duracell Bunny

 

While Harris was indeed single minded in his efforts to bring the war to an end by bombing alone, it should be noted that he never disobeyed any orders from his superiors.

 

If it wasn't you it would have been someone else.
Dresden is one of the most controversial episodes of WW2, and while it does sometimes bring out extreme emotions, it cannot be ignored, or even 'swept under the carpet'

 

To Hop

You mentioned Coventry, yes the Luftwaffe did bomb Coventry, but do you know that Prime Minister Sir Winston Churchill knew that Coventry was going to be attacked, as the Enigma code had been broken and so he was told, but could do nothing as it would reveal to the Germans that the code had been broken.

VR

 

Sorry, but the truth is far less interesting.
There was some confusion over the target that night, but Coventry was one of the cities placed on high alert for a possible raid.

 

No sweat

 

Nonsense, I will disagree with you. There is never anything wrong with a difference of opinion. Posters should not be conveniently erased. Spiral out of control how? Swearing? Threats? Utter nonsense, post your point support it and be prepared to have it agreed with or questioned or disagreed with. Instead of "I don't like your opinion so I'll feel conveniently threatened or offended." and then go whining about it in a pm to a moderator.

And Carl don't be sorry for an interesting thread, sure you get some teens and occaisional naivety but sometimes you get veterans expressing how it really was and that to me is worth all the tea in China.

 

here here!!!

 

Jaeger's comment has been taken out of context here. The offending point - which has been retracted, not deleted - concerned a remark which breached Forum rules. And just for the record, Jaeger most certainly did not 'whine to a moderator' and AFAIK, never has done.

 

Cheers Martin.

And your post Herr Oberst, proves the point about taking a deep breath before posting.

To use a saying from the Army "breathe through your nose". Meaning SLOW DOWN.

I have made several blunders in the past by not reading other members post's carefully before making a reply.

 

1.)Do these figures mean that Harris did not anymore believe in the city destroying bombing winning the war??


2.)How much of bombing military targets in 1944 was Harris´ idea? I know he was "forced" to bomb military targets because of the Overlord so that´s why I´m asking.

Howstuffworks "World War II Timeline: April 27, 1944-May 4, 1944"

Along with Arthur "Bomber" Harris, RAF chief of the air staff Sir Charles Portal was a vigorous advocate of area bombing. Over Harris's strong objections, Portal sided with Eisenhower's commitment to the "Transportation Plan" of bombing French railroads instead of German cities in preparation for D-Day.

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3.)Also I know the peak of ops to German cities took place in 1945 so how could the figures go that much down?
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The peak of Bomber Command's operations occurred in the raids of March 1945, when its squadrons dropped their highest amount of ordnance (by weight) for any month in the entire war. The targets included: March 1, Mannheim by 478 aircraft; 2nd, Cologne 858 aircraft; 3rd, Kamen 234, Dortmund-Ems Canal, 220; 4th, small raids; 5-6th, Chemnitz 760, (1,223 smaller raids); 6th-7th, small raids; 7-8th, Dessau 526, Hemmingstedt 256, Harburg 234 (1,276 smaller raids); 8-9th, Hamburg 312 Kassel 262 (805 smaller raids); 10th small raids; 11th Essen 1,079 aircraft; 12th Dortmund 1,079; 13th Wuppertal and Barmen 354; 14th, Herne and Gelsenkirchen 195, Datteln and Hattingen (near Bochum) 169; 14-15th, Lützkendorf 244, Zweibrücken 230 (smaller raids 812 sorties); 15-16th, Hagen 267, Misburg 257 (smaller raids 729); 16-17th, Nuremberg 231, Würzburg 225 (smaller raids 171); 17-18th, small day raids of total of 300 aircraft; 18-19th Witten 324, 277 Hanau (smaller raids 844); 19th, No. 617 Squadron RAF using six Grand Slam bombs hit the railway viaduct at Arnsberg; 20-21st, Böhlen 224, Hemmingstedt 166 (smaller raids 675). The daytime total on the 21st was 497; the nighttime total on the 21-22nd was 536, the 22nd daytime total was 708. On the 22-23rd and in daylight on the 23rd, about 300 bombers carried out small raids. On the 23-24th, 195 Lancasters and 23 Mosquitos from 5 and 8 Groups carried out the last raid on the town of Wesel. On March 25 there were attacks on towns with communication support for German troops defending the Rhine: Hanover 267, Munster 175, Osnabruck 156. On the 27th, there were attacks on Paderborn 268, Hamm area 150 and smaller raids 541. On the 31st Hamburg was attacked by 469 aircraft.


RAF Bomber Command - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

According to a table found in the Penguin Atlas of World History, the Allies dropped about 10,000 tons on Germany in 1940, 30,000 tons in 1941, 40,000 tons in 1942 and 120,000 tons in 1943 while in 1944 they drop 650,000 tons and in 1945, about 500,000 tons are dropped in the first four months (at that rate, 1.5 million tons would be dropped over the course of 1945).

Effectiveness of Allied Bombing in Europe

In November 1944, RAF crews delivered 347,538 tons of bombs—exceeding the total of 339,179 tons dropped in all of 1942.

Statistically, it was an epic performance. Bomber Command sorties soared from an average of fewer than 2,000 per month in 1939-41 to 3,161 in 1942, 5,422 in 1943, 13,904 in 1944, and 16,871 in early 1945.

Air Force Magazine

 

I doubt Harris changed his mind. In fact, the results he was achieving probably strengthened that belief.

Harris didn't like what he called "panacea" targets. The history behind that is the British air staff had come up with plans earlier in the war, and ordered attacks on specific industries, in the belief that concentrating on one particular target type would destroy the German war effort.

The first example was oil, and the planners calculated that BC could reduce German oil ouput by a massive amount in 1940. BC tried, and the results were negligible.

Harris believed that the way to wreck the German war economy was to destroy German cities, and that focusing on one small aspect (eg ball bearings) would just lead to dispersal etc, and have little effect.

He was probably right in that.

However, Harris had shown more flexibility than he is given credit for. He authorised the dams mission, for example.

The peak of operations took place in 1945, but by then there were many other targets than city areas. For example March saw Bomber Command drop nearly 70,000 tons, of which about 30,000 tons went on German cities. In April they dropped about 35,000 tons, with about 1,000 on city areas.

Those figures look about right. What most don't realise when claiming bombing didn't win the war is that until the summer of 1944, bombing of Germany was fairly light. Half the bombs the allies dropped on Germany fell in the 5 years up to September 1944, the other half in the 7 months afterwards.

Hmm. Both figures are well off. Bomber Command dropped 35,388 tons in 1942, about 55,000 tons in November 1944.

 

Perhaps I should have been more clear, it was a generality rather than Jaeger complaining to a moderator as some do. But he was one of the don't offend anyone crowd, don't have an unPC opinion.

I see more of the same, I guess I now know who the untouchables are

I would also point out that I have opinions and sometimes they are not right although my breathing is just fine thank you

 

Keeping in topic once a day keeps Panzerpenguin away.

 

ALright I am New and kinda popped up in the Middle of The Thread what are we talking about?

 

You seem determined to prolong this argument.

The point at issue was not 'PC' or unPC' : it was that this Forum will not tolerate insulting remarks being made to Veterans. The member who made the original comment was man enough to admit his error and apologize.

If you don't like it and wish to play with words further, I suggest you find somewhere else more appropriate to do so.