British armour in Normandy

yes I agree and the problem with holding back an offence that want's to charge into the enemy, plus the problem of even identifying friend from foe at a 1000 feet was always a problem, especailly with all the smoke lingering low through the fields.
Think U will find for the first ops that the LAH Panthers and Pz.IV's were quite effective and the 101 SS was not that effective in comparision to other Tiger 1 units in Normandie. Can't say I have heard much about LAH's stug abteilung either through the whole conflict.

 

Hmmm.. maybe I should pick up Ripley's other volume...

Another note, along the lines of the point Erich makes about range- this was even further an advantage for the Germans if one looks at optics. As far as I know, throughout the war the Germans generally had the best sights/optics for their guns. This meant that not only could german tanks engage enemies at longer ranges than most, but there was also a much better chance of the first shot actually hitting the target without needing an adjusted second shot.

I would also have to imagine that many, or at leats some, of the german tank crews in Normandy had much better/more gunnery training and practice than their allied counterparts.

I'd also have to agree with Erich's point on wondering about the apparent lack of tactical air support. Bombing behind the lines, hitting assembly areas, knocking out communications- all of that is certainly useful and effective. But considering the air superiority the allies enjoyed in Normandy, I am rather suprised that it seems like the air support was limited to the start of the operation. As mentioned, in bocage-type country, massed tank attacks really would not work against a well-positioned, well dug-in german tank- very little room to maneuver.

Kai- does Ripley make any mention in the armor numbers about operational status? Often tank and AFVs would be listed as part of a unit's strength despite being in short or long term maintenance. I wonder how many of those tanks were actually available and ready for action during Goodwood?

 

Some things that come to my mind after what´s been discussed according to what I´ve read...

The Bombing behind the lines did have quite an effect later on as the Germans had to leave many tanks behind as they were escaping from Normandy ( Falaise ), or even before as maneuvres were very limited due to lack of fuel. I read the Germans had to send own troops as far as Paris to fetch for fuel. The bombing of course destroyed the lines for the allied as well and slowed down their supplies being delivered!!!

The German Flak "might" have been quite effective on the other hand. The allied "might" have lost quite a lot of planes in Normandy so even if you saw German panzers you would not want to attack them right on with your rockets...
The "might" is because I read on an article that the allied lost about 2,000 planes in Normandy... and I´m not sure on the figure. Sounds quite high to me but maybe someone else knows about this?

Sorry CrazyD,
I think Ripley did not have the figures but then again I read yesterday Michael Reynolds´ LAH in Normandy and I think it had the figures. Gotta check it for next time.I think the figures Ripley had did not include the tanks under repair which means they had more tanks coming like some 20 panthers, 40 PzIV´s and so on..

 

On Normandy Flak force:

Canadian Military history

The history of Second Tactical Air Force

http://www.legionmagazine.com/features/canadianmilitaryhistory/99-01.asp

The Germans had been forced to concede air superiority in France, but they equipped their forces with enormous quantities of anti-aircraft guns, including the dual-purpose 88- and rapid-firing 20-and 40-mm guns.

Flak was a particularly dangerous threat to ground-support aircraft that were committed to low-level reconnaissance or tasked to attack ground targets. In the book Blue Skies, Olmstead writes: "Flak is the one thing that pilots, be they fighter or bomber, fear above everything else. Flying along in formation a mile or two above the earth, it is possible to avoid flak by taking evasive action through frequent alterations of course and altitude, but once committed to a dive on a target, the pilot must press home his attack while shells and bullets of all calibres flash by. We were quite philosophical about flak, as much as we hated it, because surviving flak was strictly a matter of luck, and it claimed the best pilots as well as the poorer ones in time. The 88-mm shells and heavier calibre guns burst with a bright red flash surrounded by a large ball of black, wicked-looking smoke that hung lazily in the sky. At dawn or dusk, pink tracer shells were visible, a sight that flyers will remember for years. It was a horrible feeling to climb away from a target and watch the rosy balls of red-hot death streaming by, missing you and your aircraft by a very few feet. Then there was the reverse effect when you attacked a target, and the shells seemed to come up so slowly that you felt you were watching them for ages. Not until they were close did you get the full impression of their tremendous speed. It took steady nerves to carry on facing so many deadly messengers."

The German anti-aircraft regiments, manned by the Luftwaffe, had years of practice. They inflicted terrible losses on Second TAF pilots. Between April 1 and June 5, 1944, 133 fighter bombers were shot down, and the toll increased after D-Day.

 

And..

III. Flak-Korps

http://w1.183.telia.com/~u18313395/normandy/gerob/othghq/3flak.html

Mainly the corps was employed on the eastern half of the German front in Normandy, against the British units.

As has been emphasized above, the corps was mainly employed in the air defence role, not in the anti-tank role. This is also reflected in the claims by the corps during the Normandy battle:

Air Craft shot down
462

----------

And to see how things had gone previously:

In April and May 1944, the Allied air forces lost nearly 12,000 men and over 2,000 aircraft in operations which paved the way for D-Day.

http://www.ddaymuseum.co.uk/faq.htm

[ 30. May 2003, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: Kai-Petri ]

 

Michael Reynolds´ figures for German tanks at Goodwood ( Ist SS Panzer Corps in Normandy ):

17th July

Peiper´s 1st SS Panzer Regiment LAH with 59 Mk IV´s, and 46 Panthers combat ready.

Heinrich Heimann´s 1st SS Sturmgeschütze Battalion with 35 StuG´s. Total number of operational armoured vehicles available to I SS Panzer and LXXXVI Corps on the morning of 18th July was therefore 219 tanks and 95 StuG´s and SP armoured assault guns.

It has to be remembered that 49 of these were with KG Wünsche, temporarily attached to antoher Corps in the Lisieux area.

In addition there were eight Tigers, thirty Panthers and 25 Mk IV´s in short-term repair, giving a grand total of 377 German tanks, StuG´s and SP armoured assault guns.

 

Hmmm...some disagreement...

Ripley notes total of 200 tanks and 50 StuGs... including 25 Tiger Is.

Reynolds- 377 Total?
And I'm confused on some of Reynolds other numbers...
59 MK IVs plus 46 Panthers plus 35 StuGs.. somehow =
"was therefore 219 tanks and 95 StuG´s and SP armoured assault guns."

How does Reynolds get 219 + 95 from 59+46+35?

And then-

 

Yes,

unfortunately Reynolds doesn´t mention all the other possible groups around that add to the number of tanks, but goes through precise figures for LAH tanks and Wünsche´s forces. As well the under repair tanks.So I guess the final number comes from tanks for LAH, Wünsche and other groups around + repaired tanks for all.

Ripley on the other hand goes for the figures for LAH+ Wünsche, but does not include the under repairs tanks.

At leas I think so. That´s the problem with what you want to emphasize on the matter...

 

I did some reading on this to find the possible other forces around from several books.

As known the brunt of the Goodwood attack came on LAH, and mostly it is thought the battles on 18th were between some German battle groups in defensive positions and after 19th between LAH forces and the British, and a bit later on HJ ( or what was left of it ) joined the battle on the 19th or some mention even the 20th. Goodwood ended on the afternoon of the 20th or morning of the 21st, there´s some variance on this.

Anyway, the tanks that for sure as I read it...) took part were LAH´s tanks, KG Wünsche, 21st panzer division assault gun battalion ( StuG III´s ), 102nd Heavy SS panzer battalion ( 19 Tigers ), KG von Luck ( 200th Sturmgeschütze by Major becker ), 101st SS with 17 Tigers and 8 in short term repair, later on parts of HJ.

HJ was actually being "repaired" in Falaise area and was not supposed to take part in the battle except that it was commanded to help its sister division.On Reynold´s book "Sons of the Reich II SS corps in Normandy and Arnheim " HJ is said to have 96 Panthers, 96 Mk IV`s.

As well along were 10 Jagpanzer IV´s by SS lieutenant Hurdelbrink.

One group I´m not sure about but seems to have taken part in the abttle is 503st Heavy Panzer by captain Fromme with 36 Tiger tanks, of which one company made of King Tigers.

------

Some may count the forces of 10th SS panzer division ( Frundsberg ) and 9th SS panzer division
( Hohenstaufen ) as they were in reserve mostly. If someone has more on their action on Goodwood I´d like to hear that! Earlier in July they had been removed from the front because Hitler was expecting another invasion in the west!

------

Most of the data is collected from Ripley´s book "Steel storm Western front battles", and the Reynolds´ books on "I SS in Normandy" and "Sons of the Reich IInd SS corps in Normandy and Arnhem"

-------

To me it seems the delay that the 88´s in Gagny caused were enough to let the Peiper´s tanks
( LAH ) to take its position and after that there was not a chance to get past the Bourquebus ridge.
As well the battle of Hill 112 and Germans able to keep it just before was important as the left flank was thus secured. Without the Hill 112 it is mentioned that the Goodwood might not have been stopped?



Map of part II of Goodwood

http://www.onwar.com/maps/wwii/normandy/1goodwood44.htm

[ 04. June 2003, 03:05 AM: Message edited by: Kai-Petri ]

 

Nice info, Kai!

I can take a look tonight into the Tiger sitaution. I wonder- it sounds like your sources suggest that the s.SS.Pz.Abt 101, s.SS.Pz.Abt 102, AND s.Pz.Abt 503 were all in the area at the time... that sounds like a lot of Tigers to have deployed in one area!

I always wonder about this stuf, too. When Reynolds notes that HJ had 96 Panthers and 96 Mark IVs... what condition? How many battle-ready? How much gas, and so on...
I get the idea that alot of sources simply look at the top "level" of divisional return reports. This data would note how many tanks were available to the unit- but one would have to dig a bit deeper to determine the condition of the vehicles.
Kind of hard to determine though...

 

dang PC's......SS Schwere Pz. Abt. 102 was in the area of Amaye on the 20th of July, technical service on the 21st, 22nd in the area of Maltot and Feuguerolles-sur-Orne, 7 tigers in action.
23rd defence for 2nd companie, 8 tigers in captured terrain. British tank assault, 6 British tanks destroyed, 2 more destroyed by 1st Komapnie on the left flank. tigers hide 200m behind main line of defence. 1 Tiger covers northern part of Feuguerolles. 8 Tigers in action.
24th Assault by 8 Churchills out of maltot towards St. matrin, and all are knocked out by 1st Kompanie.
2nd platoon of 2nd kompanie supports offensive action east of the Orne from Postions NE of Fueguerolles. 7 tigers in action but problems with low visibity weather.
2nd Kompanie is still covering postion and supresses enemy movements on hill 67 and at the N exit of St. Andre-sur Orne. # British tanks and 4 AT guns destroyed. 7 Tigers in action. 1st Kompanie is relieved on Hill 112 by 3rd Kompanie. 1st Kompanie moves to Cropton.

from Schneiders momumental work Tigers in Combat 2 and the logbuch of the SS Schwere Panzer Abteilung 102/502......www.ss-panzer.de

~E

 

Guys, anyone familiar with Patrick Agte's Michael Wittmann und die Tiger der Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler?

It has a few capters on this episode (in German, guys I am really too tired right now do translate it all) and it has some great pics with pretty detailed (who, when, where) captions.

Also great OOB's of Abt. 101 with numbers and list of crews as per june 6, 1944.

 

Tired ? you ? don;t remind me, I'm about ready for some Zzzzzzzzzzzz myself.......

STevin has given the title of probably the bst book on SS Schwere Panzer Abteilung 101/501 written so far. Will say that the SS 102 Tigers were not involved in Goodwood as they were in support overall of the 9th and 10th SS Panzer Divisions, with the 10th SS only have 1/2 of it's Panzer regiment in Normandie. That was the Pz IV. Abteilung. The defence as I mentioned for the truppen was for Maltot and hill 112(Operation Jupiter. etc) and the area surrounding it. A neat little book to acquire is " Hill 112 battles of the Odon 1944" by Tim Saunders. This is part of the Battleground Europe series published by Leo Cooper/Pen & Sword/ combined Publishing. ISBN# 1-58097-056-7. Soft-bound and at 192 pages, photos through out 5 1/2x 8 1/2 inches.

Also besides Wolfgang Schneiders book and the web-site I listed I would strongly recommend
"Firestrom of the last War Year" by Wilhelm Tieke, first through Munin VErlag..OOP and then a couple of years ago into English by JJF pubs.

~E
~E

 

why are you doing this to me?

I am checking out Hill 112 by Saunders on Amazon and end up with a bunch of books I NEED to have now...

Pen & Sword website @ http://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/

Found The Bloody Battle for Tilly: Normandy 1944 by Ken Tout on Amazon.

OEH! Gotta have that!

 

Stevin : Yuk, Yuk .......check the Casemate web-site out oo at www.casematepublishing.com

besides the one I listed there will be / Mont Pincon by Eric Hunt

Operation bluecoat by Iain Daglish
Operation epsom by Major Tim Saunders

at $16.95 each U cannot go wrong.....all three will probably be a necessity for observing the area in conversation on these forums. The book U just mentioned also sounds like a great title to have as well !

~E~

 

Stevin :

I see the Mont Pincon book is in stock and at a lower price range of US $9.95 ! nice that they cut the cost way down. Can be ordered on-line too ! Sweet !!!

~E

 

I am not even going to look....

 

You can feel it Stevin.....it's calling U !

~

 

Have...To...Fight...The...Voices...In...My...Head...

 

Stevin :

I am ordering the Mt. Pincon book today and will let U know how the book fairs when it drops on my doorstep.

I do beleive that SS Schwere Panzer Abteilung 102 was the highest scoring Panzer unit in Normandy with over 225 British tanks to it's credit.....does anyone else have victory totals for any other British or German unit during the Normandie campaign ?

~E