Change a battle

Both attack waves put together consist of 21 Swordfish. (as you probably know) 12 in the First and 9 in the Second. The typical squadron of ME109's consists of 24 planes. A force of that size would spot at least the first wave.



This is a map showing both attack waves. The fighters if in the air they would have encountered at least one of these groups.

 

At night, with the torpedo bombers operating individually ???

You seem to be overestimating the ability of non-radar equipped aircraft to find other aircraft at night.

ps You also seem to be basing your view on the principal that the Luftwaffe would be already in the air waiting for the Swordfish... Why would they ?????

 

Thats why it is a what if scenario. I honestly dont know why they would. Patrolling? Who the heck knows?

 

And how would the Me 109s do that - the swordfish didn't take-off till 8.35 PM. That is Taranto was a night attack.

 

Re: Taranto - now see my reply has already been covered.

But to the 'thread':

1) Malene airfield on Crete isn't lost - Germans can't reinforce. Freyberg accepts German paratroop surrender.

2) Not just Antwerp, but the islands of the Sheldt (?) estuary are also taken allowing the Port of Antwerp to be quickly utilised.

3) Agree with the comment earlier about Mark Clark & Rome - he wanted his name in the history books as the man who 'liberated' Rome.

4) HMS Glorious had a different Captain, so that it sailed later with Ark Royal and their aircraft were able to go 'fishing' for the 'twins', or at least had Swordfish up on patrol to warn of the Scharnhorst & Gneisenau

5) RAF still win Bob - but more so! Maybe canon armed fighters, better twin than Blenheim 1F, no Leigh-Mallory! Who knows - but scope for more success.

 

Admiral King agrees to implement the convoy system and blackouts along the Eastern seaboard prior to the U-boat's "American Happy Time". Sinkings would have still occurred yes, but the losses in ships and merchant seaman would probably be less than those suffered in reality.

 

I would change the battle of Moscow. I know most people say "capturing the capital does not win a war always and most certaintly with soviets"

But you forget about something, Stalin was in Moscow during the battle, he refused to leave he was way too confident that the Germans would lose the battle thanks to the horrible loses they took at Stalingrad they werent simply qualified to take Moscow. If I can change the fight and the details I would change the outcome of the battle of Moscow with a German victory and also in the middle the Kremlin receives a swift attack, Stalin is captured thus USSR ends, it doesnt matter if the Red Army still was left or if the Soviets still had the nigh impossible to reach Urals facilities, Stalin is the dictator and thus has complete control over the army he orders the army to surrender, they do. Its the problem of having all the power centralized in 1 guy, even if you are at your 100% if the guy falls can take you with you.

Of course Stalin would ask before surrendering the army some guarantees like allowing him to live and probably a safe-conduct to USA or UK, I dont think Hitler was SO retarded to keep fighting the soviet union only because he wants Stalin to be his prize at the concentration camps, probably he would accept releasing him in exchange for the union. Having taken the Soviet Union I doubt Britain alone could do anything to that Germany. So it would stalemate with the US resulting in a peace treaty between both, Asia for Japan, Europe for Germany and America for USA.

 

For a start, Stalingrad was the year AFTER the battle of Moscow. Whatever Stalin said or thought previously, I doubt he would stick it out to the point of being captured, though I suppose one could hypothesize a rapid encirclement (in winter!!) or some sort of coup de main. Stalin survived setting up the country for the disaster of Barbarossa, so he could ride out whatever embarrassment there was in leaving or losing Moscow - another advantage of being a dictator.

I think the Germans had a good chance of taking Moscow if they had foregone the assault on Leningrad, and I think that would have been the most useful way for them to conclude the 1941 campaign. Not so sure that someone would ring a bell and declare them the winner, but they'd be in a better position for spring 1942.

 

If they captured Stalin, thats what would happen, he rings the bell and declare them the winner

 

Germans had no chance of capturing Stalin and if they had, there would be no "bell ringing", the Russians fought for mother Russia not father Stalin.

 

Yes, I know Germany had no chance in reality of capturing Stalin, but thats the point of this thread, it is called "Change a Battle" which means I can change the outcome of ANY battle in any way I wish and describe the effect on the war, as long as it is possible within the war parameters and is only 1 battle, in the battle of Moscow Stalin WAS INSIDE MOSCOW, he told he wouldnt leave Moscow thus meaning that it is possible within the war parameters the German could had captured Stalin in Moscow fallen quick enough or was taken by encirclement.

 

I understand the changing of battle part but capturing Stalin? That is like saying had the Russians found Hitler's bunker sooner, he wouldnt have shot himself in time.

Capturing Stalin was never a possibility even had the Germans won the battle. Stalin had a train waiting for him if all was lost. His decision to stay in Moscow was simply for morale boost. If he had fled what would the people think? Moscow was in fact expected to fall at the time (ofcourse in retrospect we know it was simply not possible) this is why Stalin sent everyone away to an alternate capital.

Besides had Moscow fallen, Hitler would have surely visited the city (as he claimed he would). Its almost too bad that he didnt as virtually the entire city was booby trapped. It is almost certain that had he stepped foot into the Kremlin, Bolshoi theatre or any other of the hundreds of government and military buildings, he along with his top men would have parished. Now how about that for an alternate history.

 

It was impossible for the Germans to capture Stalin, really? Even if they took Moscow by encirclement? What would stop the germans from bombing or destroying the **** out of the trains?

And terrorists attacks at Hitler proved to be a fail, over and over, ask Stauffenberg

 

How exactly (even in this what-if) do you see Germany encircling Moscow?

Seems you are unfamiliar with the Luftwaffe's attempts at bombing the worlds most fortified city.

So those who attempted to kill Hitler were terrorists? Interesting...

What was Hitler?

 

While it is true you can "change a battle" and try to figure the outcome of doing so, one must remain inside of the reality of the time which did effect the said battle. I would think that if you wish to change the weather, then you have to do so, if you wish to change the failed Nazi logistics, then those have to be included as well as answers as to how to accomplish this.

Stalin was far from sitting around waiting for the Nazis to encircle Moscow, he had sent the bulk of the government out of Moscow and only remained with a skeleton staff, and a train at the ready to evacuate. However, the Soviet's didn't have the "loyalty oath" to Stalin that the German military and civil service did to Hitler. He was important but not the total lynch-pin Hitler was. That said:

The Germans were finally slowed by a combination of adverse weather and determined counterattacks. The first snow fell in Army Group Centre's sector on the night of 6-7 October 1941. It soon melted but was followed by the rainy rasputitza (literally time without roads), a period of mud that strikes Russia each spring and fall as the seasons change. German mechanized units used up motor fuel at 3 times the rate they had planned. ... (they had none to spare) Even before poor weather arrived, however, a series of Soviet counterattacks along the entire front helped stabilize the situation. Perhaps the most effective of these blows fell on Guderian's 4th Panzer Division as it approached Mtsensk on 6 October. Here two Soviet officers who later gained fame as superb battlefield commanders cooperated to ambush the Germans. Majo-General D.D.Leliushenko's 1st Guards Rifle Corps had rushed to the scene to block the advance of 2nd Panzer Group (Army). Leliushenko's troops included two tank brigades, the 4th and 11th, and two airborne brigades, the 10th and 201st of 5th Airborne Corps, flown to a nearby airfield.

Colonel M.E.Katukov's 4th Tank Brigade, equipped with newly produced T-34s, displayed a tactical ability that the invaders had not encountered before. ... By the end of the day, most of 4th Panzer Division's armor had been reduced to smoking hulls. This shock to 2nd Panzer Group (Army) was so great that a special investigation was conducted. Even Guderian grudgingly acknowledged that his opponents were learning. But it was a near-run race. Following his usual habit, Stalin sent Zhukov from Leningrad to the threatened sector, making him commander of the Western Front on 10 October. Zhukov had to plead with Stalin to keep his former rival Konev as his deputy in order to maintain continuity and morale in the headquarters. Zhukov found almost no surviving units to defend the road to Moscow. ... In Moscow the initial reaction to the disaster was to deny that any breakthrough had occured and to search for scapegoats. Once the enormity of the danger sank in, Stalin came close to panic. On 13 October he ordered the evacuation of the bulk of Communist Party, STAVKA, and civil government offices from Moscow to Kuibyshev, leaving only skeleton staffs behind. (emphasis mine) The news of this evacuation, in combination with repeated German air raids and a variety of wild rumors about the Viazma-Briansk battles, produced near-panic in Moscow on 16 to 17 October. Much of the population tried to flee, mobbing the avaiable trains for fear of imminent occupation. Only the announcement that Stalin himself remained in the city stilled the panic. (David Glantz; When Titans Clashed, p. 81)

By late October, the Wehrmacht and the Red Army resembled two punch-drunk boxers, staying precariously on their feet but rapidly losing the power to hurt each other. Like prizefighters with swollen eyes, they were unable to see their opponents with sufficient clarity to judge their relative endurance. In retrospect, the German forces had gone as far as possible for 1941 and needed to go into winter quarters. At the time, however, the STAVKA had to face the possibility that, once the first hard frost restored mobility, the invaders would be able to capture or at least encircle Leningrad, Moscow, Stalingrad, and Rostov. (David Glantz: When Titans Clashed, pp 81-82)

In early November, Western Front intelligence analyst identified preparations for this encirclement, and Zhukov badgered Stalin into aproving a whole series of spoiling attacks on advancing German forces, while other front forces manned the prepared defenses covering the approaches to Moscow. One such attack by Group Belov against Guderian's right flank, caught the German 112th Infantry Division with no anti-tank weapons that were effective against the attacking T-34s. The result was a panicked retreat by most of the division on 17 November, an event almost unprecedented in the German Army....The day before, however, 44th Mongolian Cavalry Division, was committed southwest of Klin in a mounted counterattack across an open, snow-covered field. Two thousands cavalrymen and their horses were cut down by artillery fire and machine guns of German 106th Infantry Division, which suffered no casualties. ... While Zhukov's spoiling attacks continued, the ground had frozen hard, and von Bock's Army Group Centre resumed the offensive on 15 November. ... In the north, where General Hoth's redesignated 3rd Panzer Army posed the most immediate threat to the Russian capital, a desperate fight developed for control of the highway running from Kalinin through Klin to Moscow. (David Glantz; When Titans Clashed, pp 84-85)

In the south, 2nd Panzer Army resumed the offensive on 18 November, after recovering from the brief panic caused by the Soviet attack of the previous day. ... Boldin's 50th Army, tenaciously defending the outskirts of Tula, launched counterattack after counterattack against Guderian's front and flank. With temperatures well below freezing and troops running out of fuel, ammunition, and functioning vehicles, the German advance slowly shuddered to a halt. Guderian repeatedly asked that the offensive be canceled, but no one in OKH had the authority to take such an action without Hitler's consent. Dogged Soviet defenses did as much to stop the Germans as did bad weather and poor supply lines. (David Glantz; When Titans Clashed, p. 85)

The Red Army did not have an abundance of forces to launch a counteroffensive. Soviet historians have claimed that, as of 1 December, there were 1,100,000 Soviet troops facing 1,708,000 Germans in German Army Group Center, with similar disproportions in equipent ... These figures vastly overestimate effective German strength, but they correctly assess Red Army strength. Many Soviet units were mere skeletons. The 108th Tank Division, for example, was down to 15 out of 217 authorized tanks ... The Soviet winter campaign began on 5 December 1941. Driven by necessity, the STAVKA first sought to blunt and repel the German armored pincers threatening Moscow. (David Glantz; When Titans Clashed, p. 87)

 

Here's an another one- The Japanese drive into Burma is stopped before Rangoon. This happens because the 17th Indian Division manages to get all its brigades over the Sittang Bridge instead of two being left stranded on the wrong side. The Briitsh are reinforced by a division from the Middle East (maybe Australia allows the 6th AIF Div to go to Burma or the British 18th goes there instead of Singapore). As a result the Burma Road is able to send supplies to China virtually uninterupted and more Japanese conquests in South-East Asia are in bomber range.

 

Maybe even send the Canadians to Burma rather than the ill fated Hong Kong. Hold the Sittang bridge for a good deal longer, enable a proper withdrawal over the river and fomr defence lines rather than carry on with the longest retreat in Britains military history.

 

[moves to another thread]