Codebreaking... or not...

But i don't see how. Was not the bomb rushed a it was. I beleve they had nly carried out one test, and this was not that long before it was droped. And i doubt they would have used it on Germany. And if Grmanyhad got it, the US would not have had the cance to use it.

 

Bish- can you tell that the various naval theaters are NOT my specialty?! I didn't know that... did the germans ever figure out that the brits knew any of their codes? And, does my analogy/theory hold? Did codebreaking have a significant impact on the U-boat war, or did the codebreaking of the two sides sort of cancel each other out?

 

After the U-110 as caprured in 41 and sinkings of merchant ships decreased, Dornitz did suspect that Enigma had been comprimised. But every ime he voiced his cocerns with Berlin, he was told eerything was ok. When the Germans added more wheels to their Naval machines and blocked us out, i think they were just playing safe. I do not think hey ever found out for sure. But the sinkings did increase. When we were reading the codes, the convoys were re-routed to avoid the U-Boats, and this re-duced the numder of ship sunk.

As i said earlier, it got so bad in 41, that the U-Boats were all but withdrawn from the Atlanic. They only started sinking again with the US entry into the war. Then, they blocked us out, and sinkings in the mid-Atlantic went up. It got so bad hat the Germans were sinking as many ships asthe US could produce. It was at the same time that Germany was reading our codes. I'm not to suree if and when the German cdes were broken again.

So, in the early stages, yes, Enigma was probably the most important weapon against the U-Boats. But it was mre a case of avoiding them than destroying the.

Of course, latter on new weapons became available in particular aircraft, that meant even if the codes were ot being read, the U-Boats were now being hnted themselves.

 

Interesting stuff... So I guess out of the examples I was thinking of, DDay and the Uboat war, codebreakig had a FAR greater impact on DDay, with the deception of Hitler and all. Now that you mention it, I have read that the new weapons deployed against the UBoats had a huge impact. Improved radar being one that I remeber- didn't the Brits or Americans improve their radar to the point that it could detect a periscope?
And it seems that codebreaking also had a rather significant impact on Africa and Italy, but then again not so much in RUssia. Hmmm.

 

Crazy, hi!

As I said before, the codes were so important for the Western allies that breaking them made them win the war.

The first "happy time" in winter-summer 1941 was very, very sucessful and lots of ships were sunk, specially in April. But we did not have enough U-boats in 1941 yet. Late in 1941 after the Enigma of U-110 was studied and broke the British could read the messages and they diverted the convoys from the wolves... Of course the convoy sinkings decreased and the U-boats raised. In 1942 was, I think the worst year for merchant ships and convoys, because in 1942 the German industry was launching 30 U-boats a month and 30 crews were delivered as well. That means that evryday there was one more U-boat in the Atlantic. Then, the type XIX was developed "the milky cow" and when the USA entered the war, Dönitz extended the blockade to the very American shores, where there were no escorts and the ships sailed with the llights one. It was a bloody butchery, during the first months of 1942, where nearly 70% of the shipping was sunk not further than 200 kilommetres from USA's coasts. By mid 1942, in summer, there were enough U-boats to perform the tactic "Wolfpacks", where a whole bunch of submarines attacked a single convoy. One or two submarines diverted the sheppard and the others hunted sheeps... The sinkings increased until 1.300.000 tons of shipping a month!!! In January, Dönitz had added an extra wheel to the Enigma and changed his other codes. The British were able to read the Enigma codes for a month or so. But a very important month, anyway. The situation continued like this until 1943. Dönitz had been helped by new technologies: new acustic torpedoes, radars and a bunch of electronic weaponry and equippment. What he did not know was that the allied radars were so sofisticated in 1943 that they could watch a single persicope, the ASDIC (sonar) was incredible in detecting submerged U-boats, that his four-wheeled Enigma was being read and that the "Liberators" now had entire controll of the Atlantic. Do you know that 70% of the U-boats were lost for air-attacks? As I said, Döntiz had to withdraw his U-boats in "Black May" when he lost 41. We lost the battle of the Atlantic that month.

Now, with this landscape you can imagine what could happen without ULTRA. Great Britain would have starved with 1.500.000 tons of supplies sunk a month. We were pretty close...

 

Ye, i think it was able to detct periscope in calm seas. There was also the Hedgehog, and the long range aircraft that closed the air gap. But, as Fredich says, that period in 41 when codes were being read was what saved the UK. By he time they were blacked out again,it was to late.

As to Russia, i am not so sure. It may have been that the Allies did not wish to share this with Russia, or it could have been that Stalin did not trust thye info he was given.

 

Bish- wasn't the Hedgehog that multiple depth charge launcher? I think I saw that on a history channel program... now that must have been really terrifying on the recieving end...

Friedrich, I have also heard of the "Black May". You and Bish make very good points about the technology involved. While it seems codebreaking was important early on, it seems the technology race was the determining factor in the end. And you're right- England was in real trouble at a couple points. Wonder what would have happened had England been forced into negociations?

And on the Russians, I think it was really a combination of both your points- the rest of the allies did not share very much with the Russians, and even if they did, the Russians were far more prone to trust their own sources...

[ 19 July 2002, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: CrazyD88 ]

 

It would have been hard for Britain, all defeats are. And their HUGE pride would have been hurted. But you know that Hitler and all Germany liked the British, because they are our "Brother people", because we share roots and culture. I don't think we would have been so strict with the British as we did with France, by example.

And yes, Stalin did not trust a lot on the Western allies informs. Example: he was adverstised several times by Churchill himself about "Barbarossa" and Stalin did nothing. Even if the Western allies shared a bit of their codes with the Soviet Union, it was not much worth it...

 

Yes, thats the one. But unlke the depth charge, the hedgehog exploded on contact with the U-Boat.

Freidrich, while Britain wouldhave been in trouble as you say. I doubt we would have been occupied. At this point in 41 Hitler wasealing with what he saw as the true enemy, Russia. Personally, i do not believe Hitler ever wanted to invade England. Simply having us out of the war would have been enough.