Discussion in 'The Stump' started by Poppy, Jun 7, 2017.
should we disband the police, Bella?
who is funding.
follow the money.
why isnt soros dead yet.
they have said blm is mapped.
so we should see results very soon.
lefty heroes locked up at home.
poor oprah. one of the richest woman in the world.
despite her wealth and numerous staff- she has decided to stay at home for the remainder of the year.
numerous pictures of oprah and weinstein...oprahs support and interview with john of god .
oprahs african school for girls...
isaac kappy had a lot to say about her.
weird some of her posts and background art. ellen is also kooped up at home. did anyone see her giving a haircut to her mom? nice art.
...jimmy kimmel, bless his soul.
hollywood is dying.
i could not be more happy to see these freaks crumble.
Police are necessary of course, but like any long standing institution, periodically it needs to reform. Societies evolve overtime and its institutions must evolve along with them. Demographics, mores, customs and technologies put stresses not anticipated when institutions are founded. Remember Trump backed prison reform a year and a half ago. Law and Order go together, you can't change one while ignoring the other.
Obviously not a party, but to imagine BLM isn't impacting politics isn't a realistic position. The whole reason for it's existence is to impact the political (and every other) system.
Oh, and they aren't "protests" and "protestors" if they are looting, destroying property, and killing police. BLM's platform is 100% political and radical at that. Have you read their platform? It's cancerous insanity.
It's interesting that you speak of BLM as a benevolent group of people braving tear gas and rubber bullets. BLM is a reprehensible organization whose members promoted & conducted cop killing and racist hatred, why not mention those features of BLM? The measures used against them are a response to the aggression and violence of their race riots, and in my opinion were far too civil.
I have got to admit I'm disappointed, your arguments are usually better.
First by calling it a movement, I acknowledge it has a political impact, The Sons of Liberty, Abolitionists and Suffragettes were movements that had and promoted a political goal. The NRA, evangelical's and Federalist Society also have political agendas, are they radical 'terrorist's'?
The protests are nowhere near as organized as you claim they are, nor is their 'agenda' nearly as universal as you state. From what I have seen if you ask 10 different people, you get at least 6 different opinions. Yes there are a few that used the protests to loot and destroy property, but the vast majority simply marched, held signs and called out for change. The Sons of Liberty destroyed English property, Abolitionists helped spirit away runaway slaves, again depriving some of their 'property'.
You are painting BLM with rather a large brush here. Should I conclude that by Trump tweeting out two inbred 'Villages' white supremacists shouting 'white power' that both he and all his supporters are also white supremacist's? Must I conclude that Trump is surrounded by criminals because of Stone, Cohen, Manafort etc?
Lets be candid here, the US has a pretty spotty history when it comes to people of color. Native Americans were forced onto ghetto's (reservations), Blacks were brought here as slaves, Hispanic and Asians often treated as second class or worse. In living memory our military was segregated, police worked hand in glove with the KKK to terrorize blacks in the south and elsewhere. Far too many schools serving neighborhoods of color are substandard limiting opportunity.
Yes we have made progress, but have miles to go to fully live up to our ideals and it is far too easy for those that have to tell those who do not to remain quiet, be patient, wait your turn.
Your "moderation" on this site disappoints me. Otto closed a thread for TDS recently, and it was you that threw it off track. How do you become a mod around here anyways?
I'll also note you couldn't help but. Bring. Up. Trump. In. This. Post. Yet. Again. Disappointing.
The lesson here is that juvenile jabs about disappointment are just disappointing.
Good, so now you agree with me. It is a political movement, "and a powerful one at that". This is quoting you. I'd be "disappointed" too if my argument made the very point of my counterpart.
It's the hatred, violence, & killing of police that would qualify as terrorist, but I guess we have different standards of law & order. BLM was also founded by ‘trained Marxists'. Yeah that sounds like you support a great organization.
There you go again with "protests", how very nice. The very fact these are unrestrained race riots is the very problem. If your movement includes violence, looting, & attacks on police, it's probably not a good thing. Your "whataboutery" regarding other historical movements that included violence doesn't change that.
As any card carrying Republican should know BLM has a specific platform. Among their goals:
-Defund & abolish police as they are all racists
-remove STEM classes from colleges as they are racist
-reparations for black people as all white people were and are racist
-dismantling of the traditional nuclear family because it's racist
The fact you obscure this radical platform with a weak line like "these friendly protestors have 6 opinions for every 10 people" is just weak. Weak.
Please Bela, go ahead and tear up your Republican membership card (if you ever really had one). You aren't fooling anyone with your "I'm really a conservative and I support BLM" line. There is a reason the largest SJW on this site liked your post. I see very clearly now why you didn't outright disavow Wolley's my-daddy-the-terrorist statement, and waffled on it.
History is replete with people doing bad things to other people. I would only feel guilty for the things I'm directly responsible for. For some reason you are letting your guilt make you an apologist for deconstructing the ideals of a functional society. But hey, I know! Let's cut a Billion dollars from the NYC police budget! Yeah! Smart! I wonder if this will have a negative or positive impact on Black Lives? Thank God we have such big brained people supporting the "protesters" (radicals) who want to "reform" (abolish) the police. The BLM "opinion" to defund the police is moronic, dumb, and is going to end up literally getting people killed, a good proportion of whom will be black.
You are a moderator on a WWII website, so you should know better than most the answer to this: How long until these activists come to remove any reference to Eisenhower or pull down the Marine Corps War Memorial depicting the flag raisers? These men served in a racist segregated army after all! Racism! Tear it down!
And finally, please drop the Republican/conservative act. It's not convincing.
I have no problem acknowledging a well crafted argument, even those I personally disagree with.....when I see them. It is interesting you equate 'good' moderation with agreeing with you. You complain that I brought up Trump, I would suggest you take a look at the thread title. Its about James Comey who was fired by Donald Trump, leaving him out would be like having the best WW II forum and mandating a mention of a certain A. Hitler verboten. That dog won't hunt as they say down here.
Actually it is you who agreed with me, in a previous post you contended there were now three parties in the county, Republican, Democratic and the BLM. I disputed this calling it a movement, in your post #565 you agreed saying of course it is a movement.
You persist on equating all of BLM with a terrorist organization bent on killing police officers, yet when I access the Officer Down Memorial Page (dedicated to all officers who lost their lives) I can't find one killed by a BLM protester. The majority succumbed to Covid 19, health issues or vehicle related accidents. Those who perished by violence seem to have been responding to 'domestic disturbance' and unknown prowler calls. There was a Federal Protective Office killed in Oregon, but that was by a white supremacist trying to start a race war. After considerable effort I did find a Las Vegas officer shot during a protest but not killed and its not clear if it was done by a protester or someone trying to settle a score or start trouble.
Have some officers been injured, certainly, but considering the police have access to helicopters, armored cars, horse mounted troopers, tear gas, pepper spray, rubber bullets, tasers, batons and professional body armor I would guess the ratio of injured officer to injured protester is not even close.
Protests bring together many people with many different opinions. When our founding fathers came together some wanted independence, others wanted full representation in Parliament and some wanted to throw themselves on the mercy of the crown. I'm sure mad king George saw only the first group but if he recognized the middle group we might still be a member of the Commonwealth like Canada. Absolutism reduce every debate to a zero sum game.
I have voted only in Texas and to vote in primaries you must declare in one party or the other. I'm a proud old timey republican, I believe in balanced budgets, not reckless deficit spending. I believe in standing by your allies, not love affairs with Asian dictators or apologizing for eastern European tyrants. I believe in a strong military, not in attacking a Gold Star family or demanding a Navy crew hide the name of the ship they proudly serve on because it might hurt the feelings of a temporary occupant of the Oval office. I believe in free trade, not endless trade wars and tariffs that only hurt low income people who rely on lower cost imports.
There was a time when the Republican party was the standard bearer for racial equality, but sadly today it seems to have more in common with the old Democratic party that helped form the Confederacy.
The police department in most cities has become the most expensive element of municipal government and we have asked them to be a catch all for our issues like truancy, mental illness, homelessness and substance abuse. Perhaps its time we spend less on band aids (police) and more on treatments that directly address our underlying problems. Camden NJ showed that it is possible to make a change and both keep order and earn the respect of those whom they police. We overly militarized our police after 9/11, we need to get back to peace officers and not a occupying force largely free of consequence for their actions.
Nope, I never assessed your moderation as good or bad. Just that it isn't really "moderation" if you are the the one getting threads chopped down by the site admin. Isn't that what site "moderators" are supposed to do? You appear to be the very reason the site needs a moderator from time to time. As for Trump, you constantly bring him up. Obviously, one cannot discuss WWII without mentioning Hitler, but is he addressed in every single topic about WWII?
You are very happy to assign any suspected right wing attack to a national unified "white supremacist" movement. Are then also trying to say that BLM has never incited or perpetrated violence against police? Really? Now you apply rigid and legalese standards for attribution? Of course, BLM are the good guys. Not Marxists calling for "dead cops" or anything like that.
But I guess you are right. Since no police were outright murdered during the riot period by a BLM "protester" that we can absolutely confirm, then everything BLM is peaceful. Yes, let's ignore the mountains of video of police and police cars being pelted with bricks, police being run over, multiple LEOs shot, stabbed in the neck, etc, etc, etc. How many hundreds of officers were injured during these protest? Oh, let's ignore that, they weren't killed. No dead body, nothing to see here. Move along. Ever hear of Gavin Long? Micah Xavier Johnson? Nope, they didn't kill cops not during the past month. Look away please.
Here is the work of one of your "peaceful protestors". On the anniversary of D-Day this year, Las Vegas Police Officer Shay Mikalonis was shot in the head while he attempted to disperse "protestors". Mikalonis will probably remain on a ventilator for the remainder of his life, but he is at least awake and “appears to recognize his family.” But he wasn't killed, so let's forget about Mikalonis. BLM is peaceful dammit!
I do enjoy that you ignore every cancerous aspect of the BLM platform and instead focus only on successful police murders during the "protest" period. Oh, and more protesters were probably hurt due them having protection, so the four officers shot is St Louis need to STFU.
If you want to discus police reform that's one thing, but BLM isn't asking for police reform are they? If you support BLM that's fine, just don't cherry pick the "moderate" portions of BLM you want to stand behind.
Peaceful protesters lighting fire to a home, then blocking Emergency Fire vehicles from responding. No one killed, so all good. Everything is fine, nothing to see here!
The specific ptart at 3:26.
Peaceful BLM teens introducing themselves to white youth. One of them yells "Black Lives Matter" after kicking the guy in the face. No one killed, so all good. Everything is fine, nothing to see here!
"if we dont act, 2% of the passionate will control 98% of the indifferent."
I suppose I could treat all of us to a nearly 10 minute video of 4 officers choking the life out of a handcuffed man accused of passing a bad 20 dollar bill (and we must say accused since, he like far too many others, did not live long enough to go before a judge as is his right) but I know your stance on whataboutism.. except when it suits your argument.
I have tried repeatedly to stress that the BLM movement is more nuanced and like events in our past has both radical and moderate elements To fall back on absolutism where all police officers are heavenly angels beyond reproach and all who protest the actions of a few are card carrying Marxist terrorists bent on destroying Western civilization will never solve the real problems we face.
Most officers are decent people trying to do a difficult job, but some clearly should never been made police officers and others who have been at so long they have lost perspective. We need a better alternative then shuffling from precinct to precinct or department to department like abusive Catholic priests.
I embrace the more moderate goals of BLM and utterly reject the more radical pronouncements, it would be nice if you would call out those who abuse their badge and uniform with equal vigor. When a officer pins a badge on their chest they act with the authority we the people give them and we the people must bear some responsibility for everything they do in our name, both the good and the bad.
Why in God's name would you do that? I never asserted the police in Minnesota that dealt with George Floyd were innocent. You stated you supported BLM and defended them as not being violent. I posted content that destroyed that perspective. You respond with violence conducted by another party.
Here is another version of our conversation:
Bella: I think bananas are vegetables.
O.M.A.: Really? I disagree, here is a heap of evidence that shows bananas are a fruit.
Bella: Oh yeah? Well, apples are a fruit! So there! Gotcha!
O.M.A.: I agree that apples are a fruit, and so are bananas.
Bella: Well, bananas are moderately like vegetables, right?
Unfortunately, BLM doesn't allow you to embrace their "moderate" goals. They are going full steam ahead, so you and your white guilt can enjoy the fruits of their labor.
Let's face it, you aren't much good at embracing the "moderate" line are you?