Command of the Eastern Front

Would it have dragged on longer? Looking at the hardware the Soviets poured over the german lines they would have had it anyways. If the Germans had entered the Soviet Union as liberators from Communism (as Richard suggests) then it may have been a different story.

 

Even with the Soviet war production rate, quantity of men and supplies etc. there is no doubt that different decisions would have been made on the battlefield that would have prolonged the fighting. Who is going to make better decisions? Hitler the corporal or von Manstein the Field Marshall?

 

When are we talking here? 41-42-43-44-45?

If Von Manstein was in charge in 41, there might be possibilities. But nothing would have had a more profound impact on the campaign than the German army beeing viewed as liberators rather than the bestial butchers that they were.

In 42 the Soviets had played catch-up long enough.

From that point there was no other 'victory' than keeping the war going for the nazis.

I have to agree with Za. The Generals have placed a lot of blame on the Fuhrer, but steal all the glory. If these generals were so brilliant why is it that all allied generals beat the crap out of them ??? The Germans were defeated on the battlefield werent they? I mean Hr. Hitler did not tell his soldiers to retreat from Russia, North Africa, Italy, France and the Low Countries did he ?? No the German Army was defeated. Every nation had meddeling bosses. Churchill was on the blower constantly to every commander in the 8th Army. His requests for instant action was accepted by most commanders. Monty played it his way and won. There are many American paralells too. Stalin had the sense to give his generals a bit of leeway and make competition between them to ensure that they did not relax. Point is that it wasn't just the German generals that had to fight with one hand tied to their back from time to time.

 

Jaeger,

actually I´m more surprised that the Germans were not beaten faster because of the Ultra information.If you know almost everything about the enemy troops and plans you should be able to beat them every time. Of course not all info was available that fast but anyway...

And did The Soviets get the info?? I mean was there a plan to let the Russians lose their man power against Germans at the same time? ANyone know if Stalin did get the info on Germans?

 

Kai-Petri

The problem with the Ultra secret, was that if you used it too much the lads on the other side of the hill might get suspicious. I have read (dubious quality) that Rommel was upset regarding the British hitting his 'nerves' (convois etc.) with great precicion. Then there is the story of Churchill not leaving London when he knew that there was a big raid coming.

The second problem is of course to get the codes, break them and send them down the chain of command without beeing compromised whilst the info is still usable.

The Third problem is the volume of information. getting everything sorted out and finding the really important bit.

And finally not all military commander is acceptable to change his plans by receiving some papers.

 

You certainly are talking sense in these last two posts of yours, Jaeger. One of the problems with Ultra was the enormous volume of traffic that existed, and having to filter what was of extreme relevance from the milk and cookies requests (which might be a subject of analysis too). Everything had to be decoded, translated, analysed, sifted, selected. transmitted to the appropriate destinations, and then digested by those in position to act.

Not an easy cycle.

In any case, the Soviets did not have Ultra, and sometimes their British Allies supplied them some snippets from uncertain sources, so they developed their own information sources, from infiltrators at top level to the usual lower level sources like reconnaissance (air and ground), analysis of POW interrogation, radio interception, etc.

 

Jaeger,

just started Winterbotham´s Ultra (1974) and any information on Ultra was not allowed to be told until spring 1974...

ANyway, like mentioned by you two here the amount of info was huge ( up to 2,000 messages per day ín the book ) so that´s a problem. Also decoding varied in time. And also how to use it and not get the Germans on their toes about it.

One very interesting thing is what you said Jaeger: "not all military commander is acceptable to change his plans by receiving some papers."

At least according to the author some officers even regarded it a crime to use the info against the enemy. especially Winterbotham does not like the Admiralty, as he points in that direction several times in the book.

Interesting book. I´m now reading about year 1941. Gives great insight to the battles and ideas and how much truly was known...Göring could have sent his orders straight to Churchill in Sept 1940 during the Blitz BTW....

 

Thank you for the kind words Za.

Regarding the USSR and Ultra. I don't think that Stalin and his men would readily accept information that was sent to them. The info itself would have to be washed before sending it so it wouldn't compromise the code. Another issue is of course that the USSR would have to confirm the info themselves.

In 2006 it is possible to retreive most information at the drop of a hat. We have search engines to filter out the rubbish that we don't want to know about. In the '40ies you would have to train secretaries to type, learn a new language etc.

The Ultra secret was important, but not as effective as fiction novelists would have us beleive.

 

Kai-Petri

I once read the fiction book by Richard Harris called 'Enigma'. I went on to read some of his selected books for the background. I found them to be very insightful. As for the fiction novel Enigma, it was a fun read.