Could I hate the nazis even more???

i still dont understand, how can a nazi go up to a random person and say 'hes a Jew'?

 

Some may argue it's also a lifestlye, I guess it just depends on how much one follows a religion.

The Nazi's had a system of sorts, the common one was to see if a person was circumsized. If they were and couldn't provide medical documentation to show otherwise, they were considered Jewish. There was a doctor in Poland I believe who made skin grafts to reverse the procedure as a way of protecting people. Others would simply create false documents that they could show to officials if they were ever "outed".

Another method which was simply ridiculous was to take measurements of things like skull size, nose length, etc. The Nazi's had tool kits specifically made for this stuff,

I think there might have been other "scientific methods" involving blood samples but its been a while since I've read up on it.

I believe in the Jewish faith, a Jewish bloodline is from the mothers side? I think the Nazi's may have used this as well.

 

Being Jewish is a bit more than just a religious belief - it also involves ancestry. People who are born from a Jewish mother are regarded as Jews by origin (IIRC).

This played into the Nazi ideology of racial bloodlines - the Nazis conceived of Jews as a separate race. If you had Jewish ancestry, the Nazis regarded you as a Jew - even if you didn't believe in the religion at all.

Also, as others have noted, the Nazis had their own weird ways of deciding who was a "Jew", based on skull measurements and the like. So pretty much anyone could be denounced as a "Jew" and murdered, if the local Gauleiter had a mind to do so.

 

I see some of that where I live, and I have said for a few years that I am sure Hitler got his start small too.

Side note:
Also, the SS were some major players, but I disagree with most of Germany and Germans feeling that way. In the elections of 1933, Hitler and the Nazi's lost. The defeat was celebrated like a victory, a parade and so on and seized power because there wasn't any other group that would take them on. Past leaders were murdered, and anyone who distanced themselves from the Nazi's were tortured to death with steel whips and electric drills.

True, a majority of Germans did join on, whether it was because they believed in what the Nazi's were doing or to protect their families I can't say.

I'm just thankful to live where I do and that something like that isn't a choice I have to make. Personal sacrifice or personal integrity.

 

Actually, in the book "Holocaust," by a Jewish Doctor, the horrors were just beginning, Dr. Mengle once cut a body into two separate parts and removed the internal organs then put the two halves on display to the other prisoners; and I do recll where the experiments consisted of deliberately infecting someone with a deadly disease then releasing him/her back into the main 'population' of the prison camp for study on the effects of other prisoners... The list goes on, and on.

, Ancient quote Author and time unknown. -Birdy

 

Beware of the fabricators, young person.
JeffinMNUSA

 

This ideology was so inspiring for many Germans, that they really believed they are better, and more worth than Jews, Slavs and many others.

Anti-semitism was well present in europe during that time, but in Germany, additionally with the Arian Ubermensch theory it lead to harsh hatred against Jews. Sadly this believe and hatred did not vanish after WW2.
As I am living in Austria, but I'm Polish with Serbian origins, I also see that in our time.
Just recently when I was in a tram, talking over the phone, an older Austrian jumped at me that I should speak german and not this dirty language. I also remember many incidents when I was a child. Good thing mainly the older generations are the "problem", not the younger.

 

As others have said going back to family. The Nazi's weren't stupid. When they conquered a town, the officers were given a list of everyone's name,sex,religion,hair-etc. For example;

Name:James
Sex:M
H:6.0
W:200
R:J

That's just an example, I can find and I do think I have somewhere an actually list. The officers would go to a synagogue, and a Church-Everywhere! So when they went to Cristian Sally Sue's house, they didn't expect to see 20 others, but only her family of 4. That's when hiding came into play. The Officers would get photos, we are talking anything to Identify a person.

P.S- Careful when you use the term "Nazi" to every German during that time. That's profiling a lot of people, and not every Nazi was bad. No I'm not noe, I'm just saying that we can't judge everyone. The SS were in charge of the Camps, not the Nazi. Erwin Rommel was a Nazi, but he was the most respected and humanists. For example :

-4 guys walk into a bank,all together

-One guys name is Spencer ( SS )
-Another guys name is William ( Army, can't ever spell Whre something correctly)
-Another guy is named Kevin ( Kriegsmarine)
-And another guys name is Logan (Luftwaffe)

So Spencer pulls out a gun, and kills the bank teller. Then they all leave and run away. Spencer is now charged with murder, though the other boys with 2nd degree. Though are we to blame the other boys, for actions of just being their? I hope you see what I'm trying to say. My personal thought is we can't judge everyone cause of one person. Another Example: What if a Cristian went in to an abortion clinic and killed everyone? Well we can't then say all Cristians are bad. I'm a proud Cristian and I don't believe I every wanna hurt someone or commit a crime. Just I'm big on Labeling, and judging without first looking deep into the subject. Hope this all explains somewhat, and if there's anyway you need my help on the holocaust list then let me know.

All the best
Alex

 

A majority joined the Nazi's or a majority supported the actions?

When it came to anitsemitism, it varied from location to location. A place like Berlin for example had a higher concentration of antisemitism than other parts of Germany.

And being anti semetic does not mean you automatically want to kill all Jews. The levels of antisemitism among people had varied throughout Europe, one could be antisemetic but not want to go as far as harming someone, yet others might.

This should give you a good idea,

Kristallnacht - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm trying to track down Dr. Flehinger's original article about what he witnessed. I'll post here if I ever find it. If anyone has other first hand accounts from the days that would be great too.

If it was about supporting the Nazi's, at its peak something like 10% of Germany supported the Nazi party through party membership. They barley got elected too and even that was under suspicious circumstances.

 

i dont think every nazi is bad, because ive read that some of them actually smuggle Jews out of camps, and I know that they are regular people, that they were just guys walking down the wrong direction...and I never say that Nazis were every germans during that time. thats including, like you said, alot of people, including civillians, who might love Jews, and might not agree with every thing that hitler says and not have to do anything about the war. when i say 'nazi', i mean the military germans under hitler's command, not at all the whole country.

thanks guys for all of the answers. i appreciate it.

 

In regards to your example below:

In some US states said 4 boys walk into a convience store and try to hold it up at gun point. The owner responds by pulling out his shot gun and killing one of them at which point the others run. All three of them can be found guilty of murder in the first degree.

 

There is always a problem with the Holocaust ( a Hebrew word meaning a great burning) and European definitions of citizenship and nationality.
The Europeans are just as tribal as Arabs, i.e. if you are not of whatever ancestry you are not considered that ancestry no matter where you live or how long your family lived there. People normally considered not of your nationality were foreigners living in your country. Jews, Gypsy's, had no actual nation so they routinely subject to pogroms when any state wanted their property or them gone. The citizens didn't care because the pogrom didn't affect them or any relative. This is rather normal, for example the anti native pogroms in the United States before 1900. I am not saying this is good behavior, it's just what happened then, and still happens today.
War seems to change things and one of them are laws, during war sedition laws can be easily enforced, for example in Germany during war disobeying a military order was punishable by ten years at hard labor, or death if serious enough, the holocaust happened because an order was given and nobody was willing to accept the punishment for disobeying.

 

A citizen is essentially a legal resident of a nation. Those targeted by the Nazi's were themselves German citizens regardless of ethnicity, religion, etc. German Jews, German Gypsies, etc.

Similar applied in other nations.

Don't forget, the Kaiser's unified Germany was for all, not just "ethnic Germans", Catholics, etc.

 

If you are considering the issue legally, then after 1935, when Jewish citizenship of the Reich was revoked (legally), then Jews no longer were 'legally' citizens of Germany. The same is true of Gypsies (Roma) although their citizenship had been legally questionable in a significant number of cases from well before the Nazi period, including during the Kaiser's reign.

The Nazis were very good at following laws, it just happened that they also were good at getting laws that suited their policies passed.

The Gypsy and Jewish issues were not restricted to Germany - Gypsy citizenship in particular has long been an issue in many countries, Switzerland, France and many of the states formerly part of Austria-Hungary are prime examples, although the issue was more widespread than that. Even Federal Germany refused to recognise Nazi persecution of Roma as being racially motivated until 1979, meaning that there was no chance of them claiming compensation as other groups were.

And all of it was 'Legal'

 

Good point, that never crossed my mind!

My point being, they were still German citizens and not aliens or anything of the sort.

 

Sorry to disagree with you again Mehar, please don't take it personally and I do understand that you mean they were 'Germans' in the modern sense of having been born and raised there, and your original point was not to debate the legal definition of citizenship.

But;

After the Nuremberg laws and some of the follow up changes were passed, the majority of Jews and others that were affected were legally considered 'subjects' and not 'citizens' (the distinction was a Nazi one, but roughly followed the practice across all of Europe before the middle of the nineteenth century. The distinction between 'Jew' and 'Citizen' is often made in the actual wording of the laws).

In reality this meant they were legally either slaves/serfs or aliens without a state, although in practice that aspect of the laws only really meant they lost the right to vote or hold public office, and couldn't display a German flag or symbol. Interestingly their right to display a Jewish symbol such as the Star of David was actually protected by the laws and was one of the basic rights that was never taken away.

This in my view made them legally 'aliens', albeit belonging to a state that had no land, form or representation at the time.

There were numerous plans considered in the late 30s to rectify this, such as moving the Jews to Palestine or Madagascar, thus giving them international legal status as citizens of their own nation - obviously and unfortunately, these plans were not carried out.

 

Once again, good point.

Pre Nazi persecutions that began were targeting them as citizens though, albeit as legal ones at the time.

Hitler had actually organized a deal with the Palestinians over the resettling of Jews in that area. I forgot the exact number but a few thousand Jews IIRC were allowed to leave Germany in the mids 30 to settle in that area, I think they were also given some money as well to help with the settling. This was actually a very infamous bill from the era, I forgot what it was called but at the meeting that allowed it to happen three groups were present. A group representing the citizens from the area (who encourage the settling), a German Jewish group, and the Nazi's.

Interestingly though, the group within the Nazi's at the time who encourage the creation of Israel in Madascar or surronding territory actually rejected one in Palestine because they knew violence would errupt as a result.

Edit: Looked into my notes, turns out it's called the Haavara Agreement.

 

hey, thanks for that. i didnt know that ment 'Great Burning'. makes scense, too

 

Actually it originally meant "burnt offering", as in the animals sacrificed to dieties in ancient days.

I believe that Jews themselves refer to the tragedy as "Shoah".

 

Apparently there was wide-scale rape of Jewish or Pole girls in the death camps, in spite of racial purity regulations. Women & The Holocaust - Scholarly Essays

I think most SS troops were volunteers who believed in Nazism, but they were at the main normal human beings who had been indoctrinated. There does seem to be a number of sadistic people committing the most egregious forms of depravity that would indicate some profound antisocial personality disorder, but it's debatable how such men could lead successful and normal social lives out of the camp before the war. Since they were all dead, its too late to put them on the couch. Whether their sickening tastes were acquired through service in the Nazi system or innate would be an interesting question for biographers.

There were different types of atrocities. Survivors reported that the kind committed by large groups of men, intoxicated by alcohol, seem to take on a form of ritual of passage or bonding behavior for the group. Perpetrators competed to be more violent and abusive than the one before him. This seems to be true with Russian troops, I don't think there are any vallid reason not to apply the same logic to regular SS or Army soldiers on the German side. Atrocities in this setting have an escalating dynamic and the men did things they were incapable of doing alone or sober.

In contrast, Joseph Mengele, Paul Blobel, Amon Goth, Oksar Dirlewanger were just monsters in human guise.