D Day in 1943.

The whole point of invading Italy in '43 was to divert German Divisions away from France ahead of the '44 Invasion, to make it an easier invasion than if there was no diversion of German Troops. The Germans had expected an invasion of the Balkans so had moved units there instead of Italy, but once it started to play out they moved elsewhere.

 

It was also to make Germany divert troops to Sicily/Italy from the Eastern front to alleviate the Russians.

If the Sicilian invasion armada and troops count was larger than the D-Day invasion, then why do they always say D-Day was the largest amphibious invasion in history?

 

Was it that more troops came in on the 1st wave on the 1st day on D-Day, where as the Husky troops were spread out over a series of days and waves?

 

From all sources I have seen, Husky involved a more powerful battle vessels and more of them than did D-Day, so I don't see how D-Day was the "largest amphibious" when clearly Husky was.

 

I was just read different excerpts from Liddell-Hart's book "Husky: the Greatest Seaborne Assault" and his figures for battle vessels are greater and vessels in general greater.

 

Were the 160,000 Husky invasion troops landed over a period of days? I believe the 156,000 troops including the airborne for Overlord were landed all in the first day, maybe that they all massed on the first day at once that's why its called the biggest in history?

 

I have read some of it. Are you talking to me about the size of Husky in regards to cross-channel attack?

 

Husky isn't the cross-channel invasion though, but I'll read the whole thing now to see what you mean.

 

Rich, do you have any input as to the size of Husky vs. Overlord in regards to troops, ships, etc.?

 

I've been reading on the Panzers in the east in summer 43 and the quality was much lower than in summer 44. They still had tons of Panzer 3 tanks, about the same number as the Panzer 4. They had no Panthers (apart from the D version which didn't work) and probably similar numbers of Tigers to 1944. Sherman 75 in the summer of 1943 would therefore have been adequate.
German Panzer production only really soared from the autumn of 43 onwards allowing the Germans to have 4000 in the east and 2000 in the west in June 44. In June 43 armor was much therefore more scarce by comparism. They had about 3700 in the east and bare bones in the west. To fight a western invasion they would have had to transfer about a thousand from the east just to hold the line and the Red Army would have ended the year in Warsaw.

 

Yes, this "gee whiz" "comparison comes up too many times. The claim that HUSKY was "larger" is nonsense. From a post of mine on another site 13 years ago.

My short answer.

For NEPTUNE the assault forces assembled and assigned to the Western and Eastern Naval Task Forces (Assault Force U, O, G, J, S and Follow-on Force B and L) were:

2 HQ ships (Ancon and Bulolo)
10 APA/XAP
45 LSI
220 LST
195 LCI (L) (including those designated as LCH)
709 LCT (all types, but not including 36 LCT (R))
135 Support Craft (LCF, LCC, LCG, and LCT (R))

So actually it appears there were 1,259 "major" craft in the actual assault, not 2,092, although the difference could be in the follow-on forces.

That may be compared to HUSKY with:

5 HQ ships
57 APA and LSI
7 AKA
148 LST
235 LCI
238 LCT

The significant difference of course is the additional use of large ships in HUSKY, neccessary due to the long sea crossing, especially for 1 Canadian Division, and the much larger contingent of LCT for NEPTUNE, possible (barely) because of the much shorter distance. It is also interesting to note that only 268 US-built LST and 314 LCI (L) had been completed through June 1943 making HUSKY a substantial investment in those types and probably the upper limit of what could be done in mid-1943.

To illustrate, the HUSKY lift was sufficient to enable US Seventh Army to assault 16 beach sectors in strengths that were between company and battalion-size. Thereafter, ship-to-shore shuttle operations enabled the landing of the rest of the force, but in fact the lift available for the actual assault waves was less than that assigned to OMAHA alone.

By 17 July, all of Seventh Army ashore in Sicily totaled just 92,815 officers, NCO and enlisted. In comparison, at the end of the first week in Normandy First Army had 132,333 men in combat divisions alone ashore and 219,290 had entered France "across the beach" while another 17,282 had arrived by air.

In terms of armor moved the difference is staggering. For HUSKY the lift included 327 Commonwealth and 125 US tanks landed by 16 July while in Normandy about 1,164 Commonwealth and 680 US tanks had been landed.

HUSKY = 452 landed in one week 10-16 July 1943
NEPTUNE = 1,844 landed in one week 6-12 June 1944 (actually more were landed since the British also brought in and issued virtually all "First Reinforcements" while many of the few US reserves were also landed, an exact count appears impossible at this late date)

The HUSKY fleet had a minimum of about 300 kilometers to travel from Tunisia (and the distance for the Canadians from England was even a bit more than that). The NEPTUNE fleet traveled a maximum of about 300 kilometers from its furthest bases, and most were about 120 kilometers away.

This led to the HUSKY fleet being comprised of a large number of troopships in the initial force, most of which carrierd smaller landing craft (LCA, LCVP and LCM). In the NEPTUNE fleet there was less of a requirement for large ocean going troopships and most of the smaller craft were actually transported on the larger craft. Note that overall the NEPTUNE fleet of just landing ships and craft is larger than the total HUSKY fleet including troopships and ancilliary vessels.

Finally the NEPTUNE plan called for an allocation of US infantry and armored forces similar to that found in HUSKY. However, as can be seen, the allocation for the Commonwealth forces in NEPTUNE was much different from that in HUSKY. The numbers of infantry brigade-sise formations was less, but the number of armored brigade-sized formations, which required proportionately a much greater number of major craft such as LCT and LST, was double that of HUSKY. There were 402 Commonwealth Shermans loaded in the initial HUSKY force, plus 79 awaiting a second lift. For NEPTUNE there were approxiamately 1,090 Shermans and about 120 Churchill AVRE in the first lift. For HUSKY there was a single Commonwealth SP artillery regiment requiring lift, a total of 24 M-7. In NEPTUNE each Commonwealth division was provide with an SP artillery regiment for the assault, a total of 72, and the RM manned 85 Centaur close support tanks as additional direct fire support. In other words HUSKY required transport for just 426 heavy armored vehicles while over three times that many, 1,367 where required for NEPTUNE.

 

If you are talking naval forces the following two sources also tend to discount the thesis that Husky was larger:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Allied_warships_in_the_Normandy_landings
Note that the wiki list above is some what different, although it may mostly be in the details, from (for instance the wiki site list 7 battleships and the naval history site only 6 unless you count the follow up forces):
http://www.naval-history.net/WW2CampaignsNormandy.htm

http://www.naval-history.net/WW2CampaignsRNMed3.htm

Since the latter two are from the same source and cover both battles they are probably the best for comparison.

 

Rich is right overall, but IIRC there were three time the number of SP guns. The figure of 72 SP guns is PER DIVISION, with 3rd Canadian Division supported by an extra SP regiment, a total of 240 equipments, and the RM ASG had 80 Centaurs and 20 Shermans. There were also large numbers of gun and rocket armed landing craft not present in Op Husky

These illustrate the biggest difference between these operations. Op Husky was a long sea crossing followed by a landing at night using darkness to achieve tactical surprise against a lightly defenced coast. Op Overlord was a short sea crossing followed by a day-light assault supported by firepower from the sea.

 

Didn't Husky also have quite a few more beaches/landing zones than Overlord?

Either way, debating 'which was bigger' is probably a topic for its own thread as its a little offtopic in this one at this stage!

 

Yep, should have looked more closely at my old post.

CRA 3 British Division had 7th, 33rd, and 76th Field Regiments RA, all with M7
CRCA 3 Canadian ID had 12th, 13th, and 14th Field Regiments CRA, all with M7
CRA 50 British Division had 74th, 90th, and 124th Field Regiments RA, all with Sexton

 

I hadn't read your previous post in detail but the 72 total stood out.

Further nit pick
3 div correct sword beach - One assault brigade supported by 72 guns
3rd Canadian Div Juno Beach 12,13 14th and 19th Cdn Fd Regts all M7 two assault brigades supported by 96 guns
50th Div Gold Beach 90th, 86th and 147th Field Regts Sexton - with some FOO Parties from 124 and 74th Field two assault brigades supported by 72 guns