Debate For All

Guns

I'd imagine like alot of my countrymen I find America's attitude towards gun odd to but it mildly. I think the problem is it has become so ingrained that something huge would have to happen before there can be any major change. Personally I don't think the average person can be trusted with a gun. None of the arguements I've ever heard really hold water, fight a domestic tyrant (the one who has the US military onside?eek!), fight a foreign tyrant (who presumably has already bashed his/her way through US military? double eek!), defend from crime (not unless your going to walk around permanently tooled up) it in the constitution (which was writen at a time two or three shots a minute effective up to a hundred paces was hot stuff)

To those of you who feel that gun control = democracy I would point out that we in the UK have possibly the strictest gun control in the world yet we are feel the elect anyone we like to take orders from the White House.

 

Americans don't feel that "gun control=democracy". Gun control is just the opposite.

We will agree however that anyone the UK elects to office is free to take orders from the White House.

:kill:

 

Loyal servant to the American Empire

Loyal servant to the American Empire

The amount of bleeting you hear how we are giving up control, traditions, culture, bendy bananas etc, etc, etc to the horrible EU but don't seem to have problems taking orders from the US for vitually nothing in return. I wish the idiots in Whitehall would a) be consistantly irrational rather than the current selectively irrational, b) remember that we owe America zip we paid off the last of our war loans a year or two back.

Just to stay on subject still think gun control bad.

 

I understand your position.

Personally, I would like to see the USA cut off all foreign aide to all countries and adopt an isolationist position.

Then let's see what happens!

:lol:

 

Probably will be again at some point these things go round a cycles

 

Well, judging by last time, WW3!

 

Seriously, Greg Pitts, you scare me.

I see absolutely no reason whatsoever to own a working weapon of any kind. I am not a physically strong person, and easily intimidated, but still I was never in any real danger; I have walked through cities at night without ever getting threatened; no one has ever tried to enter our house without our permission; no one has ever pulled a weapon on me at all. This is total gun control; if there are no weapons, then why would you need one?

In irregular police controls, cops find a whole lot of weapons on passengers, especially youths in cities. Yet I have never encountered anyone using such a weapon; in fact it's an eight 'o clock news item when they find a couple of firearms on some small-time criminals. In owning a gun you'd just break the law yourself. You'd have to be prepared not just to kill, but also to pay the consequence of being looked at with suspicion and possibly be arrested. This is enough discouragement to make the streets safe enough to obliterate the need for guns in private ownership.

I believe it was Ricky who said that America has gone too far and there is no road back; this is a true view of the case. You can't start turning back the laws anymore now that everyone has a gun and nobody is safe. You have yourself to blame for over 11,000 gun kills a year, and the feeling that you need to protect your family with a gun or even a gun in every room. If all criminals have guns then their victims need guns; even though I disagree with it because even killing in self defence is still killing, I can understand your position. Therefore you can't ever get rid of the immense dangers of having more guns than people in your country.

Hunting is a reason to own a gun even though I don't see why you'd want to shoot animals if you can get your food at the mall. The lack of game and the fact that hunting is illegal in the Netherlands would not make hunting a reason for firearms though.

But I am especially scared by your notion that you need a gun to overthrow the government if it turns into a tiranny. It came close often enough, but nothing happened; rather, I think you'd overthrow it guns in hand if it became more like the European democracies, just because this is different and threatening to your lifestyle. But why wouldn't you be able to overthrow a government with the pen (mightier than the sword) or with the sheer masses of people who are on your side? Mass protests have led to the overthrowing of many a government in the past, even without bloodshed initiated by the revolting party. See Gandhi's actions, or the massive potests in the DDR, or your own simple declaration of independence; war was only started afterwards. A peaceful revolution usually is more effective than a violent one, because it doesn't turn the population against the new government at once.

Furthermore, what are the odds of an average government suddenly becoming a tiranny? This can't happen if you learn the lessons from the past; rather do that than to own guns to restore what went wrong.

I ask you again, why would you want to own a gun?

 

I own some guns too, but I dont feel I need them for protection(I live in a rural area, practically no crime here), I also do not need them because the governement scares me, but because I find them interesting and I find it funny to shoot with them from times to times.

Btw, why is hunting forbidden in the Netherlands??

 

As a side note - in England, if you use a gun to defend your home, you are liable to be imprisoned, unless you can prove that the people you've shot at were attacking you, or putting your life in danger. This is obviously highly subjective - unless you can display a wound.

There was a high-profile case recently where a farmer was burgled by 2 lads, he grabbed his shotgun, confronted them, shot at them, wounded one - who then took him to court! The farmer was imprisoned (or fined, I forget which).

My personal view - If you go around burgling people's houses then frankly you deserve anything & everything that you get.
The alternative is to try & phone the police, then guard them until the police arrive.

 

You can hunt only in some very small areas, and with a license; even then, I believe you actually have to own the grounds if you want to hunt. No such thing as free game here, only the State Forest Management can decide to hunt down some of an over-numbered species.

But you have to take into account that there's very little forest and wild ground here; most of this is actually in National Parks.

 

I think I said that. That's my belief anyway. America is a special case and there is nothing they can do about it. If I was American then I think I'd want to own a gun seeing as nearly every Tom, Dick and Harry has one. I wouldn't want to be left out. However that doesn't apply to me living in England. There is no reason for me to have one here.

 

No need to be afraid Roel, I have no plans on going to the Netherlands.

You have obviously lived a very sheltered life. I hope for your sake you continue to do so.

Unfortunately, there were 6,000,000 Jews that did not. Over 300,000 Africans under Idi Amin who were murdered; how many hundreds of thousands under Saddam Hssein? How many in Afghanistan, Serbia, and other I have not even touched on? I myself have spoken with people who have had their family and friends murdered by their own government for simply voicing their opposition to their leader (Portugual). I have spoken with people that have fled their country because of their ruthless leaders (Cubans - my mother's doctor was a childhood friend of Castro. He fled the country with his family when Castro took power).

Remember this my young friend. Once you are confronted by those people that have an animal mentality for power, negotiation simply does not work. Brut force can only be met with brut force. The weaker loses in a most profound manner.

If an unarmed populace is Europe's idea of Democracy, I want no part of it. You may as well live in a prison.

Now you know how I feel and why.

 

Greg -

your argument seems to be - in case your country descends into tyranny, have a gun.

1) is this likely in the USA? or Holland? or Britain?
2) if tyranny comes from internal government changes, could you really fight the US army? Could you even fight the US Police?
3) if tyranny comes from revolution - well, gun-toting civilians will probably be a big part of that revolution!

Um, gun ownership is not uncommon in Iraq. Did it help anybody?

If you need a gun at all times to protect yourself from the government, you are less than free, I would argue. And democracy is not (or should not) be built on armed might. It is an exercise in trust & co-operation.
Damn! Now you've got me sounding like a bloody Lefty Liberal! :angry:


Out of interest, when did you develop your rather 'forthright' views?

 

Ricky,

All "democratic societies" have fallen in history, and all have been replaced by monarchy or dictatorship. It's an evil cycle. Yes, the USA will eventually fall, just as did Rome. The USA is still an infant in the full scope of things.

One thing is for sure. If worse comes to worse and the populace is unarmed, all you are is another cow to be herded. As I said before, I would rather go down knowing I could not win than to suffer the same fate as so many have before in countries with gun control and an unarmed populace.

I don't think it will happen in my lifetime but more probably in the younger generations time, when those left do not know or remember what happened before in history.

Hell, here in the USA, over 50% of those recently polled between the ages of 18-29 did not know where D-Day happened or who we were fighting!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't think anyone develops their views overnight. What shapes a person is his environment and is usually a process over many years. A young man's views are different from an old man's views.

When I was young, I knew it all and had all the answers. Now, I tend to doubt myself more than I did as a youngster.

:smok:

 

Hee - well, as a young man...

I do agree with the cyclitic nature of history etc.
This, however, is mainly because the only thing we learn from history is that we don't learn from history.

We need to educate those kids!

But that, I acknowledge, is useless idealism. (ie: it won't happen)

Interestingly, as an example, Iceland has been a parlimentary democracy now for over a thousand years.
However, before anyone beats me to it, they were mostly allowed to exist because nobody thought it worthwhile to conquer them!

However, while I can see America influence in the world waning, I cannot yet see that it will dissolve into tyranny / revolution.
Still, I live 3,000 miles away, so you're probably better placed to judge!

I would still reckon that an armed populace would encourage an extreme situation (eg: mass riots, insurrections, revolt) which is the typical breeding ground for extreme governments.

But I like your cynical look on stuff! 8)

 

Yes, you are right all democracies have and will fall. The democracy of America will fall from within. Because of the way America is (and it has been shown on this board) people who are lazy deserve nothing, those who work deserve everything, or I class the lazy and stupid the same and don't deserve state help. These are the people who with their legal weapons who will make it fall. These are the people you should fear, your government has lots to lose they have nothing. There are approximately 30 million people in America who are below the poverty line, 30 million poor with guns, that is the frightening part.

Maybe if your thoughts were to give a little more to them it might stave off the revolution, there again you will be dead before it happens so sod them I will enjoy my money.

 

Oh GP,

I think Britain will be gone long before the USA. You've been on the decline for the past 200 years while we have risen to the height of power.

When the USA falls, Britain will long since have ceased to exist. Already Britain is a second rate entity and hardly a factor in world decisions. America gives you consideration out of respect rather than need, something the Islamic world will not do.

I do however compliment you on how long your country has been able to survive. Primarily due to geographical location, and the USA is in an even better one.

 

Well, fair enough, except:

I would have said that the height of our power was about 100 years ago!

 

What do you expect from a country with less history than my wardrobe.

 

If we are a second rate country how can we go to war on our own and win but you can't.

LOL