Debate: Under and over rated tanks of WW2

TW,

Could tell more about this novel?

 

I can - it's good, go buy it!

Basically the Germans & the British both 'aquire' an advisor from the 1990s, and therefore the war runs slightly differently...

 

Can I be America's advisor? Huh huh huh? Please?

 

:lol:

 

Tony the only reason i brought up 90 degree penetration, was because alot of hits are going to hit the turret on a tank. The turret is a big part on a tank, and the front turret on the T-34 was very thin, and not sloped. Plus the trajectory of the 50mm L/60 gun is very straight ! making impact angles depending on how your enemy is situated. (This also what you meant right ?)

I dont know what you mean when you say most of the hits are going to hit at 60 degree's, or how you define slope. Some say 30 degree's from vertical and some say 60 degree's from horizontal. ( Wich do you ? )

My comparence was for head to head combat between the two. And there they are equal in some ways, but the FH armor on the PzIII is gonna resist the USSR round better than vice versa. And the PzIII gun has better trajectory, making it better for AT purposes. However as you pointed out, a tanks role isnt all AT scenario's, but also alot if not more Anit-infantry roles, where the 76.2mm gun is alot better.

KBO

 

You are going to hit the enemy tank at an angle in most situations; if there is any slope in the terrain this will alter the angle of impact, as will distance of the enemy tank, movement of the enemy tank, movement of your own tank and various other circumstances. That's why hitting a 90-degree plate at exactly 0 degrees will be quite extraordinary.

 

Well im not sure about what Tony ment when he said most hits would accure at 60 degree's, as it is totally impossible to establish that
But maby he was talking about the T-34's glacis, i dont know !.

Roel, terrain can also be to your advantage. Plus its not only terrain that will come to your advantage against slope, also the trajectory of your round will work to your advantage. As a round as a arc like trajectory.

KBO.

 

You will note that most sources for armour penetration take a 60 degree impact as the standard for measurement. In fact, I read that the British determined (whether in trials or as a result of experience I'm not sure) that 60 degrees was the best you could generally hope for. As Roel said, there are all sorts of reasons why a projo is extremely unlikely to hit at anything like an ideal angle. To his list I would add that the turret is unlikely to be facing precisely towards you, unless you are practising 'quick draw' contests! :bang:

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and Discussion forum

 

If you go to my website and click on the link to the publisher's site, you can read the first chapter on-line for free.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and Discussion forum

 

Yes and i agree, but im not sure what you mean with 60 degree's Most books list 30 degree penetrations. Infact all UK, German, U.S., USSR tests are presented like that !.

Do you mean 60 degree's from horizontal or 60 degree's from vertical ??

KBO

 

T-34 armor is 60 degrees on cosini.

 

Unfortunately there have been two different conventions when it comes to describing striking angle: measuring from the face of the plate, or from perpendicular to it. The current NATO standard is to measure from the perpendicular, so 90 degrees is the optimum. That's what I use. So 60 degrees is just 30 degrees off the optimum.

TW

 

Course you can - but you'll have to write your own novel around it!

TW

 

That will be a bestseller. Danyel Phelps, with his skills for writing as we know them, starting a 200-page enflamed rant about how even the American weapons council knows nothing about American equipment.

From Tony's explanation I would draw the conclusion that what he calls 60 degrees, we call 30 degrees (outdated minds... ).

 

Hang about - here is an interesting idea.
If it was generally accepted that shots will stike armour at around 60 degrees from the horizontal, then a sloped glacis of 30 degrees from the horizontal is only effectively ~45 degrees.
My maths may be off, but the concept?

Can somebody explain this to a befuddled mind?

I know that the British concluded that the '60 degree rule' meant that vertical armour was fine ( :roll: ) and that is not what I am arguing here...

 

Thanks for clearing that up, as it could be interpreted in two ways.

Now i know you meant 30 degree's from vertical.

KBO

 

Not 60 degrees from the horizontal - there's a lateral component in there as well which was rather more important than the vertical one.

At normal battle ranges, the trajectory of a tank gun is pretty flat and it will strike vertical armour at close to 90 degrees PROVIDED THAT the target tank is facing its attacker square on. However, if it is facing 30 degrees away from the attacker, the projo will hit at a 60 degree angle.

If the tank armour is sloped at 30 degrees from the vertical then in a head-on attack the projo will strike at 60 degrees. However, if the tank is angled 30 degrees away, it will strike at a much less favourable angle (my geometry isn't up to working it out at this time of night!)

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and Discussion forum

 

Ah - right, I get what you mean now.

 

I completely agree.

 

Underrated: King Tiger!
It seems that everybody thinks this tank was a slow lumbering beast wich broke down all the time.....it wasn't that slow at all and it's reliability was even much better than Panther!

Overrated: T-34
Like the Sherman(sorry but a Sherman is just a mediocre tank) it was only a good tank thanks to the high production numbers...nothing special!