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Disgusting behavior from the US President and the UK PM.

Discussion in 'The Stump' started by RAM, Jul 6, 2014.

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  1. Christopher47

    Christopher47 Same Song, Fourth Verse

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    By my recollection, Russian troops were also "on exercise" on the border regions of Poland just before the invasion in 1980.

    I seem to recall also that many hundreds of thousands of russian troops were also 'on exercise' in the border regions of Poland shortly before they swallowed up half the country after gleefully signing the Nazi-soviet Pact, then sitting back to watch their German 'allies' do most of the fighting, before stabbing their brother slav in the back. I was taught in school that their pretext for entering the Great War was the very idea that they were 'protectors of the slavs', (namely Serbia), so what happened with their Polish freinds then?

    Maybe they were like the current government and people of the ukraine, and wanted nothing to do with such 'protective' measures, hmm?
     
  2. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Can you elaborate on which topics/stories in which Russian news station have discredited themselves?

    Because if you don't agree with these individuals say/claim I would like to see a source contradicting them. These individuals aren't politicians but former high ranking intelligence officers (whom we don't know when retired).The signers of this letter claim that not all is as the western media portrays or doesn't claim to be. Based on their experiences from the past.A comparison with Iraq is made because in their eyes the west has condemned Russia without undeniable proof just as it had with Saddam Hussein and his WMDs which he clearly had as the eerie similar satellite images showed us back then. If their opinion is irrelevant they would not be sending Merkell such a letter.

    Which parts are exaggerated? Your source for comparison pls

    I would imagine that these are the individuals that would be placed in charge of objectivity when it came to things such as these. Can you explain or provide some source which would doubt or minimize their concern? What are they not objective about?

    Which part did you read that didn't convince you? What would you need to see then that might altar your opinion/view or convince your of otherwise

    Again I would like to see your source which claims that what has been reported on Ashton is over exaggerated or irrelevant.

    Come in LWD you know how this works. I provide a source and if you are skeptical or flat out disagree, then you have to show why.... :D

    I understand that the above is exactly the opposite of what FoxNews wants us to believe. This is why I threw some wrenches into the debate which aren't mentioned in the Western media and provided sources. Feel free to disagree but please provide your own sources which challenge mine...
     
  3. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Russia today is not the Soviet Union.
     
  4. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    No your right these 10 paratroopers were invading. They were on there way to capture Kiev. All 10 of them.

    Another constructive post.

    Can your prove that the Russians in Ukraine are not volunteers but regular army troops taking orders directly from Moscow?
     
  5. Karjala

    Karjala Don Quijote

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    Can't see that much difference really...

    With a few thousand of their other comrades...

    A constructive response to a "constructive" post of yours...

    Obviously you don't read or watch any news other than Russian official propagada. The proves are everywhere.

    If you really want me to present you links to dozens of sources I can do it...
     
  6. green slime

    green slime Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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  7. Takao

    Takao Ace

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  8. Christopher47

    Christopher47 Same Song, Fourth Verse

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    Face it Sloniki. Annexation of the Crimea was something your new Maximum Leader got away with.

    But invasion of soverign territory, and so soon after Crimea, too, was transparent. You can apologize it away in any fashion you choose, but you've got to face the raw data at some stage.

    Russia is a country that cannot co-exist with it's neighbours, except as an overlord at gunpoint. It politicians are a destabilizing influence to europe, and therefore the world. It's business community is so corrupt that many more reputable countries only do business with it when they absolutely have to. It's military services are a byword for uncontrollability, full of cash poor and ill educated desperadoes that will do anything and everything their leaders tell them to. They do not know the meaning of an illegal order, and resemble a private army with all the Mafiosi.

    Why don't the people just start over again? Turn your selves around and stop hassling your neighbours, and clean up your own backyard before embarking on some ideological conquest of dubious worth? You are an educated people with one of the best literacy rates in Europe, and a tradition of artistic endevour thats actually quite amazing for a people so oppressed and downtrodden. Why not start becoming part of the solution rather than making excuses for being the problem all the while?

    This thread name should be changed to "Disgraceful Behaviour of the Russian President and PM".
     
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  9. USS Washington

    USS Washington Active Member

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    The Good old USofA
    Well said, Chris.
     
  10. USS Washington

    USS Washington Active Member

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    The Good old USofA
    That cracked me up! :rofl:
     
  11. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    Can't wait to see the spin on this one, or do they just not teach map-reading in the Russian Army?
    "Vladimir Putin has told close friend Silvio Berlusconi that he 'cannot be stopped,' from pursuing his Tsarist ambitions, it has been reported, as Nato warned some 3,000 Russian troops along with hundreds of tanks and armoured vehicles are now in Ukraine.
    The alliance claimed 20,000 soldiers are also massed on the border as it said today that Russian troops will soon outnumber separatist fighters in the east of the country.
    Former Italian premier Berlusconi has offered himself as a mediator between the Kremlin and the West in the current Ukraine crisis, according to reports in the Italian media.
    After speaking to the Russian leader, Berlusconi reported that Putin was 'extremely determined'. Putin told the Italian billionaire: 'I cannot be stopped,' sources in Berlusconi's camp told the Italian newspaper Il Messaggero."
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2743254/Russia-attacking-Ukraine-Nato-chief-urges-Putin-pull-troops-amid-claims-cross-border-artillery-bombardments-rise.html#ixzz3COtXYdP4
     
  12. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    1) my name is Slonik not Sloniki
    2) Crimea wasn't taken by force. After the parliament voted to join Russia a referendum was held where the people chose to join Russia. This is more than what happened to Kosovo when only the parliament decided on her faith and NATO did the rest.
    3)I have shown numerous sources which claim that Western powers are behind the revolution that unfolded in Ukraine. I have yet to see anyone provide a source which claims otherwise.
    4) I would also like to see some disprove the Ashton leaked phone call....
    5) Finally can someone please show me where and how Russia invaded. According to the news Russia has been invading for the last 2 weeks. Aside from "we have reason to believe that Russia is in Ukraine", where is the actual proof??
    6) Wasn't Putin also responsible for the passenger plane shot down? Why is it quiet all of a sudden? Why hasn't the U.S. Simply shown her AWAK data and close the matter......?

    Now for the always credible western sources..

    1) Why is there barely any if any reports on Kievs attacks on civilian centers with heavy artillery, bombs, rockets etc.? Out of the more than 2,000 civilians that have parished none are from Kiev...

    2) Why is there no coverage on the neo nazi paramilitary groups (right sector and Svaboda) which are operating freely with full Govt. support in the east??

    3) Why is there no coverage of US mercenaries Academi operating in Ukraine? A story which was broken by Germany...

    4) why is there no mention of General Randy Allen being wounded in the Ukraine conflict?

    I have shown sources for all of these (I believe) yet they were simply brushed off as Russian propaganda with no sources of your own to counter.....
     
  13. Christopher47

    Christopher47 Same Song, Fourth Verse

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    Slonik, that Crimean referendum was held only days after it was announced. Was there any time for any real electionearing? Time for candidates to have public debates? Time for both sides to state their case in a public fashion, to allow people to make their own minds up? No in all cases. The vote was rammed through, with no outside scrutineers, proof enough for anyone to see it was a SHAM from beginning to end.

    Do you remember the career of a certain Red Cavalry General in the Crimea? You must have heard of Semyon Budyenny, tasked by his superiors to "clean up" tribal opposition in the Crimean Peninsula during the Civil War. Budyenny's cavalry had already caused the loss of the situation for the Red Army in Poland, but he was such a staunch supporter of the Red cause that they gave him the Crimean "problem" because of his very raucous brutality, and to get him out of the way of the more professional elements of the Red Army (Tuchachevski among them)that were demanding his hide on a saddle. The job he did in Crimea was so brutish that even the Gross Kulik himself (Timoshenko) was heard to complain that it was overdone.

    Don't you think that the people of the Crimean Peninsula REMEMBER Semyon Budyenny, and what he did to them?

    THAT is why that election was a SHAM. No self respecting Crimean citizen, who had been there for generations, would have handed those damned Russian politicians their region on a silver platter, much less without an international condemnation of any kind.

    There hasn't been a legitimate election in Russia since 1919!
     
  14. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    I won't even comment on S. Budyenny post as I believe it's just silly to the discussion at hand.

    However, the following :

    Opinion - "THAT is why that election was a SHAM. No self respecting Crimean citizen, who had been there for generations, would have handed those damned Russian politicians their region on a silver platter, much less without an international condemnation of any kind."

    Fact - Out of 2.1 million inhabitants, as many as 1.4 million are Russian. They consider themselves Russian and wanted to be part of Russia.

    Fact - Crimea was an autonomous region since 91' because it's people never wanted to be part of Ukraine (the majority at least).

    Fact - The official language of Ukraine is Ukrainian. The official language if Crimea is Russian.

    Everyone knew a referendum was coming after what occurred in Kiev. The people of Crimea are the ones that called for the referendum.

    The overwhelming Russian majority was not forced to join Russia. If you are under the impression that they were somehow coerced than it's up to you to prove it

    By the way the, the referendum in Crimea never occurred in Kosovo which only had the parliamentary vote before NATO stripped Serbia. It was ok then but this is unacceptable?
     
  15. Christopher47

    Christopher47 Same Song, Fourth Verse

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    By your own figures, just over half of the Crimeans are Russian, Ok. But just under half are ukrainian. Only 200,000 difference by your own figures. And honestly, when was the last census conducted by the government of the Republic of the Ukrain that requested people in the crimean region to list their ethnicity of origin? We most certainly do not conduct census programs with this in mind, so how does the Putin government have any damned idea just how many "ethnic Russians" are in a region they haven't controlled in an administrative sense since the break up of the old Soviet Union?

    With this in mind, why not make the Crimea a jointly run zone, an area of economic and social cooperation that will take the wind out of the bellicosity on both sides?

    And I ask again, why was the only electioneering we observed in the region consisting of the usual street parades? where were the candidates on both sides, debating the issues? Any idiots can hand out currencey and get a whole bunch of people to chant slogans and wave flags that you can also hand out for free. Thats what stank about the election. The lack of any real election activity.

    And lastly, if this region was such a hotbed of Russian sympathy, why hasn't this issue reared it's ugly head a whole lot earlier? Why does it suddenly become an issue as the Putin economy runs out of options, with Ukrainian resource buyers closing their markets, and other former republics taking their business elswhere? Seems more than a mite convenient for the Crimean region to make an overnight decision that this rich region suddenly wants to be Russian after 20 years of not a word being spoken about it.

    And why deny that Budenny made few friends with ethnic minorities? His conduct in the Donbas region was exactly the same, and his only positive contribution to the Russian civil War was to reign in and destroy Deniken's out of control Cossacks, who were practicing rape, murder and extortion everywhere they went. The thing that makes Budenny's career so amazing is that it lasted so darned long for a man whose competance at his chosen craft was so obviously wanting, and yet he wasn't sacked until after the debacle of the Vyazma pocket. Even then, he still turned up as a front commander when Zhukov took over the Moscow position after "Typhoon" was well under way! Out of contact with his staff as usual, Zhukov took two days to track him down before he could debrief him and send him back to his staff!
     
  16. green slime

    green slime Member

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    1) You're wrong, there are reports. But then you didn't define "barely", and you just want to trivialise.
    2) What a shock. Nationalists and Ultra-Nationalists fighting for their nation. Why isn't the RT reporting on Fascist Russians fighting for the Pro-Russian cause? Don't tell me because there aren't any...
    3) Germany is in the West. Don't know if you noticed. Also, mercenaries. So what? That's what mercenaries do, fight other people's wars for cash. Is this supposed to be shocking?
    4) Seriously? While Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Sudan and the Ukraine disintegrates, Ebola spreads, Israel steals land and oppresses an entire population numbered in millions because of a few thousand criminally inclined, air, water and soil environment degrades, Fukushima continues to leak...

    Major General Allen Kee, Director of Strategy and Policy... was supposedly, according to your "Pravda" (a pit of vile hatred and deceitful lies if there ever was one):

    "President Obama dispatched a convoy of high-ranking men to train the Ukrainian Nazis to better massacre innocent civilians in Eastern Ukraine. "

    Can you not see anything hateful or deceitful in that sentence? Does it even make any sense? The Pentagon has thousands of perfectly capable NCO's to provide advisory roles

    Sending a Major General with vast Air Transport experience and responsibility for Strategy and Policy to "train" Nazis to better massacre civilians.... is akin to a CEO sending their VP of Strategy out to a local customer to install software. IOW; ITS A LOAD OF RUSSIAN POPPYCOCK!
     
  17. Christopher47

    Christopher47 Same Song, Fourth Verse

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    Gotta feel sorry for Mr Slonik at this juncture. He has most likely got some Putin thug watching his every post. He is certainly showing the modern example of the very thing that astounded the German Army during the GPW; and that is the legendary Russian capacity for tenacity and fanaticism in defense. The ones that ran, they ran fast. But the ones that hung around did so mostly to their last breath, taking down as many of the Fascist invaders as was possible, fighting, in the words of many a German soldier, "Like wild beasts, like cornered animals...." And that superhuman capacity for Russian wounded to bear the pain without a sound.

    No wonder the German soldier lost heart.

    Niether is Slonik losing heart......so you Putin watchdogs leave him the f**k alone!
     
  18. green slime

    green slime Member

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    2) Crimea was taken by force. Russian soldiers kept the Ukrainian armed forces in their barracks at gun point. But I guess actual physical intimidation doesn't count as "force" when its a Russian doing the intimidation. After that "non-violence", the "referendum" was a foregone conclusion. It was pretty clear what with all the intimidation going on, that people wouldn't be able to express themselves freely anyway.

    3) Once again: you're mixing up what individuals with ludicrous amounts of money want to achieve in Eastern Europe, with what individual Governments in Western Europe want. Furthermore "sources" can "claim" as much as they like. None of your "sources" have provided anything called E V I D E N C E. The worst issue is your sources are unreliable (because of the repression of journalists and dissidents in Russia), disreputable (pro-Russian media only), and a clearly operating under the Evil Eye of Putin's regime.

    4) Once again, no one is "disproving" the phone call. What is disputed is the actual context. Snippets from a single phone call, does not prove context. Release the entire phone call.

    5) Russian Soldiers, ten of which happen to be prisoners of war 20 kms in the wrong direction from Russia's official stance, when they themselves admit to what they were doing in the Ukraine. Images of tanks of a model NOT exported from Russia, now in the hands of the fascist Russian forces fighting Kiev. Evidence of the removal of the launchers used to shoot down the Malaysian Jet.... Satellite photos showing Evidence of rocket fire into the Ukraine. There is plenty of evidence. Each on their own, in a singular event, could be questionable. But it all amounts to a pretty clear picture. To be any clearer, we'd need a photo of Putin driving a tank in the Ukraine.

    6) Seriously, Why doesn't Russia release it's Beriev A-50 AWAC data? Ohhhhh, that's right. It probably got lost due to the Russian genetic defect. If the pilot managed to stick to his flight path at all.
     
  19. Karjala

    Karjala Don Quijote

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    1. ABOUT CRIMEA and "REFERENDUM"

    Crimea had a thin and diminshing Russian majority in 2013 only because of the Stalin's forced deportations. The Tatars were a hundred years ago still the largest ethnicity in their own country since 1240's, despite of the mass murders and persecution for the previous 100 years.

    In 1944 all remaining Tatars, among many other ethnicities, were forcefully deported to the East, which killed abt half of them. After the war their lands and homes were given to immigrating loyal Russian communists, who only then became the majority. Only after the collapse of the USSR the Tatars could start to return back to Crimea, only to find their history to been destroyed and their country re-invented as "historically Russian"!

    Most of the Crimean Russians are only recent (=after the war) occupiers, who are alien to Crimea (as they are in so many other ex-soviet countries). That Russian manipulated sorry joke of a "referendum" gives no legitimacy what so ever to the Russian invasion and annexation of Crimea, the land of Tatars.

    "There is a puppet government in Crimea that seized power at the point of a gun and is run by a party that won 4% of the vote at the last election. The streets are filled with menacing militia given arms but no training, supported by a variety of lethal-looking paramilitary groups and thousands of Russian soldiers who can be seen even on rooftops. Meanwhile events are dictated quite blatantly by Moscow; visitors to the Crimean prime minister's office say even his private secretary and press aide are from Russia, along with other advisers telling him what to do.

    Throw in the closure of critical television channels, the beating of a few journalists, the intimidation of opposition activists, the lies about "provocations", and you get some of the backdrop to Sunday's vote. The referendum, forced through as fast as possible to confuse voters and outwit opponents, failed to offer Crimeans the status quo choice of remaining loyal to Kiev. Given such circumstances, it was little surprise it was boycotted by fearful Tartars and Ukrainians."

    "It is worth noting also that the official observers for this sham display of democracy were a motley collection of Putin apologists and – ironically given all the fury over "fascists" in Kiev – members of far-right parties.Before anyone rushes to accept this vote, they might also like to note the most recent poll in Crimea – published last month – showed just 41% wanted unity with Russia."

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/17/crimea-referendum-sham-display-democracy-ukraine

    2. ABOUT EAST UKRAINE

    In the East Ukraine the majority of the population is still Ukrainian, although the majority language is Russian - which after so many decades of Russification and undermining of Ukrainian language is not surprising. Russia has no legitimicy to make any demands about Eastern Ukraine either.

    It's worth remembering what Stalin, the role model for Putin, has said:

    "I consider it completely unimportant who ... will vote, or how; but what is extraordinarily important is this — who will count the votes, and how."

    http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/dubiousquotes/a/stalin_quote.htm

    Yes, he did actually say that quote - and as we have seen nothing has changed in Russia...

    3. ABOUT RUSSIAN TROOPS IN UKRAINE

    The "disoriented" Russian paratroopers in Ukraine: it seems that the poor map reading is an epidemic among Russian soldiers...:

    "The Pskov Province newspaper published by lawmaker Leo Schlosberg, published a transcript of a conversation between two Pskov paratroopers, which testifies that almost all of the soldiers of the 1st Company of the 76th Pskov Division of the Airborne Forces of Russia were killed in the fighting in the territory of Ukraine.

    Censor.NET reports that currently, the web site of the newspaper cannot be reached, but the story is still available in the cache. The stories containing the paratroopers' communications appeared in the latest issue of The Pskov Province on September 2. The newspaper is published by Leo Schlosberg, member of the local legislative assembly from the Yabloko party. Last Friday, he was attacked by unknown persons after he and The Pskov Province published information about the funeral of Pskov paratroopers in the village of Vybuty. Source: http://en.censor.net.ua/n300833 Source: http://en.censor.net.ua/n300833"

    http://en.censor.net.ua/news/300833/pskov_paratroopers_company_killed_in_ukraine_survivors_communication_transcripts

    "Mother of Russian Soldier Killed in Ukraine Confirms Defeat of Russian Motorized Brigade Near Snizhne: 120 Dead, 450 Wounded

    [​IMG]

    20-year-old Anton Tumanov was killed in the war in Ukraine; he was a resident Kozmodemyansk (Republic of Mari El, Russia).


    This is stated in the article of Novaya Gazeta, Censor.NET reports.

    Date of death - "August 13, 2014," place - "point of temporary deployment of military unit 27777," time - "during the performance of military duties, reason - combined injury. Multiple shrapnel wounds of the lower limbs with damage to major blood vessels. Massive blood loss." Source: http://en.censor.net.ua/n300790"

    http://en.censor.net.ua/news/300790/mother_of_russian_soldier_killed_in_ukraine_confirms_defeat_of_russian_motorized_brigade_near_snizhne
     
  20. Karjala

    Karjala Don Quijote

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    2. Of course it was. Why do you think Putler, sorry Putain, gave medals to those invading Russian soldiers? That "referendum" was typical Russian hoax. See my previous post above.

    The parliament of Kosovo represented 90 % of the population. In Crimea the "referendum" only represented Putin.

    3. The Russian propaganda sources do not count. Would you accept a neo-nazi site as a source of the Holocaust?

    4. A couple of people speculating of what might have happened, until they knew better. So what? Now they know, as we all do, that the snipers were pro-Russians.

    5. See my previous post above.

    6. There's nothing new to be said at the moment. We already know, that it was the pro-Russians/Russians with the Russian equipment. As we all know, it's not wise to show all your info to the bad guys = Russians.
    1. Because without Russia there would not be any war in the first place. ALL casualties are Russia's fault - on both sides.

    2. There's not much coverage either of the Serbs or the Chechens on terrorist side, who are operating freely with full Russian support

    3. Possible few private mercennaries are not the same as regular Russian troops sent by the Russian president.

    4. Why should there be?

    Russian propaganda still does not count. Present some credible sources, if you can.

    About the credibility of the Western press:

    Freedom of press by country

    1. Finland
    14. Germany
    18. Canada
    33. the UK
    39. France
    46. the USA
    148. Russia

    of 180 countries

    http://rsf.org/index2014/en-index2014.php#

    Fact - that was in 2001. Since then the Russian population has supposedly been diminishing by 0.4 % per year and was most likely just over 50 % in 2013. Many Russians actually preferred Ukraine, as I showed in my post nr. 119.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Crimea
    Fact - "the most recent poll in Crimea – published last month – showed just 41% wanted unity with Russia."

    http://www.theguardi...mocracy-ukraine
    Fact - the only official language of Ukraine, Crimea included, is Ukrainian. There are also regional languages, such as Russian, in areas where more than 10 % of the people speak such language.
    Not true. The hole referendum business as well as other conflicts were Russian import. The local Russian fifth column in Crimea operated according to Putin's orders.

    The Russian majority was thin. Only the minority of the Crimeans supported Russia.
    See my earlier answer in this post. Not the same thing at all.
     
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