Disgusting behavior from the US President and the UK PM.

It is a bit too late to educate him but there's an efficient medicine against the nuisance - just go to your profile to update your lists.

 

A referendum is also not like that joke in Crimea, without proper choices, without any knowledge nor proper control of who can vote and how many times, without any control of the counting of the votes and so on. That so called "referendum" proved absolutely nothing.

Wanting to join NATO was not an issue before the Russian attacks.

It's not a civil war, it's an Russian attack using some local terrorists as a disguise. That's nothing new, since Soviet Russia used the same tactics e.g. in Finland already in 1918, resulting in 27.000 total dead - and failed. They tried the same tactics again in 1939 - and failed again.

AFAIK there were 15 soviet "republics", not 13.

Out of them Russia has so far attacked Georgia and Ukraine, attacked Azerbaijan together with Armenia, is occupying part of Moldavia, has committed a genocide against the Chechens (unwillingly part of Russia) and did cyber and street hooligan attacks against Estonia, which luckily was a NATO member and thus avoided the full Russian invasion.

Hope I did not forget any, since it's quite a task to remember them all...

That's only because the soviets did not know how to. If they had stolen the US secrets already earlier there's no doubt they would have used the A-bomb.

There's no need to demonize Russia. She is totally capable to do it on her own without any help...

Have not read lately (=for a couple hundred years) of the English fighting with the Welsh... The situation in Ukraine is nothing like Wales.

There are all kind of reporters, some with better education and many with worse.

In Iraq a murderous dictator, who was directly responsible of the deaths of millions, was ousted.

In Ukraine a murderous dictator was supported by Russia, which still wants to replace with force the current democratic government with a Russian lead dictatorship.

Except that it was the Russians who started to use military force against the Ukrainians.

The Ukrainians have the right to decide on that matter, not Russia.

BTW - do the Chechens also have a right to separate from the state who uses military forces against them...?

 

Do not pass of your opinion as fact. Can you prove any if your accusations?

Ukraine is a heavily divided country no matter what you say will change this. A comment such as "some local terrorists" can never be made by an individual who comprehends what is happening in Ukraine. Eastern Ukrainian population which doesn't agree with Kiev, numbers in the millions. The reason only 2 regions are left resisting is because the rest were suppressed by the Ukrainian military.

Conflict with Georgia occurred ONLY after Georgia launched a sneak invasion on South Ossetia during the Olympics which killed a dozen Russian peace keepers who were there in accordance to a treaty signed earlier. Within 6 days the Georgian military was obliterated and Russia then turned around and went back. No attempt at conquest was ever made when it could have easily been attained.

There was no attack on Azerbajan with Russia.

Please provide sources on Russian occupation of Maldova.

The international community does not recognize genocide committed by Russia in Chechnya. That is a FACT. No matter how loud you try to yell will change that.

As for Cyber attacks don't make me laugh. U.S., China, Japan, France, GB, Israel etc. all do this and no one really makes a big fuss. So for you to single out Russia is silly and hypocritical.

Haven't mentioned any yet.

Didn't know how to what? Aside from your non bias intuition do you have any proof if this???

Again, this is your version of history. Millions NEVER died under Saddam. While he was an SOB, More Iraqis have died in Iraq since the U.S. Invaded then ever before under Saddam.

Again YOUR version and your version only. In reality he was the democratically elected president who was recognized by the entire WORLD!!!!! While corrupt yes, he was no murderous dictator....

You have proof of this?

Neither does NATO.

In fact fighters in east Ukraine wanted to join Russia and Russia said no that's a FACT.

The following is what I'm really curious in you answering... The Chechen fighters (who pledged allegiance to Bin Laden and whom Bin Laden used as body guards) have internationally been condemned as a radical Muslim terrorist movement and organization. These individuals have committed hundreds of terrorist attacks including the most infamous Beslan school massacre but you label them as freedom fighters while labeling the Eastern Ukrainians whom the international community has NOT labeled terrorists as just that, terrorists.... Why?

 

Parting shot for you Slonik.......

How many former Soviet republics have adopted Russian culture, lock stock and barrel? NONE of them.

How many former enemies of the United states have adopted their culture lock stock and barrel? ALL of them.

The jury is out. Until The Russian Fed and Russians themselves can become a civilized nation, they will be shunned by the world community, and widely seen as having little or nothing to offer when building a future society. 100 years from now, they will still be crying about how Western countries don't acknowledge their self inflicted problems, and their incredibly poorly managed participation in WW2.

I am certain by this point their government style would have regressed all the way back to their Viking origins. It reached Ivan the Terrible under Stalin, so it's going backward and will reach it's pagan roots at some point.

 

Nothing bad about returning to your pagan roots.

 

Agreed, Takao.

But the point wasn't that pagan roots were evil, merely that it's not something thats happening in a forward direction.

 

An unfortunate point of you and while it is your right to hold such a potion, I do not wish to engage in this debate which is now beginning to stray off topic.

 

I chose Matlock because as a US ambassador during and up until the end of the coldwar he dealt with the Soviet Union on a regular basis and has much experience in the matter. He is a very intelligent man who came out of a camp filled with brilliant minds. Unfortunately, the Regan era is over.

From his site:

http://jackmatlock.com/2014/08/ukraine-cool-the-rhetoric-focus-on-the-outcome/

 

Well, before you start "throwing stones", a good case can be made that the US is not exactly headed in a forward direction either.

 

Gentlemen, the ditches exist for a reason and it isn't for wallowing in. Keep it polite.

 

This thread has gone absolutely off topic ans since it's ending in a bar fight on top of it. I'll close it.