Dive-Bombers vs Torpedo Bombers

There's nothing particular that using Swordfish would change about this engagement, once committed to the torpedo run neither Swordfish nor Devastator could manouevre either horizontally or vertically, and both would be restricted to a maximum speed of 100mph because that's the fastest the Torpedo could be launched at.

I fail to see any reason that the Swordfish would fair any better than the Devastator, yes it's fabric construction might make it resilient to cannon damage (Although again the Devastator used metal covering and the Japanese cannon in the A6M2 was basically a copy of the MG-FF whose slow velocity shells tended to explode on contact with metal skins rather than in the aircraft structure as intended, so even there they broadly balance out), but the fire coming from the Zeroes after the first six seconds would be all machine gun anyway.

The only differences are going to occur after the torpedoes have been dropped where the Devastator can speed up to try and escape more quickly, and where the Swordfish is going to be stuck under the guns of the persuing Zeroes for even longer...

Overall I really can't see any reason to think that more Swordfish would have returned than Devastators, if anything it seems to me that the opposite is going to be the case.

 

Anyone else feel that perhaps the "Ju87D vs Il2" topic should perhaps be split now? :lol:

 

One does get that impression...

 

It should be noted that the Kates burned like a torch when they got hit, like most other Japanese planes in WW2.

 

Another little known fact about the TBD is that when they were carrying a torpedo, their maximum speed was barely 100 knots. Not a good thing. :-?

 

There are a number of things that make a swordfish a relativly easy kill for a zero:

1) Cannon shells tend to exwplode anjd spark on impact, making it highly possible that swordfish would burn instead of the cannons just penetrating.
2) High maneuverability of zero allows it to follow the swordishes every turn.
3) Zero excells at 'low and slow' and this makes a swordfish more in the gunsight than off.
4) Zero is armed with 120 cannon rounds and around 1260 machine gun rounds. These machine gun rounds would just ben sprayed on a swordish killingn the pilots if not the plane.

My conclusion is a devestator would haveb had a higher chance of survival against a zero than a swordfish, but swap the zero for a high performance fighter like a BF109 and the tables are changed.

 

Some problems with cannons VS the Swordish fabric covering:

During the Channel Dash many swordfish where shot down by FW-190's but one problem they faced was that most cannons just went trough the fabric (not damaging anything and absolutly not exploding as there is nothing to spark on) as a Swordfish covering was mostly fabric...

 

:roll:

...didn't stop them all being shot down though, did it?

 

They all wen't down....6 swordfish, 18 men, 14 dead only 4 survivors...

 

Precisely.

So with an effective armament of just two 7.92mm Mgs which the Fw190s of the time carried on the engine mount (assuming here we discount the ineffective 20mm cannon) slaughtered the Swordfish...

Is there any reason to suppose that a Zero in the same position with practcally identical armament would fare any worse?

 

Precisely, A zero with its superior maneuverability would fare even better.

 

But this would be true of any unescorted torpedo planes, not just the Swordfish. Look at what happened to the six Grumman Avengers at Midway: five out of six shot down, and the last one got back to base literally on a wing and a prayer. God was definitely looking out for that crew!

 

You guys have really covered it WELL. I have nothing to add but this.

"Setting yourslef up for a torpedo run is THE most self sacrafising endevor imaginable"

That spoken by one of America's top Pacific aces. he went on to say he had great admiration for the braveness of the torpedo pilots. It should aslso be noted that most pilots in WWII, for the US anyway, were young, and gung ho, thinking they could take on all of Japan. put a pilot in a swordfish or a devastator and they will think its the best comtraption ever to carry a torpedo. They flew in under the flak and fighters becuase they thought they would come out again on top. They also did it because the squadron leader said "lets go". They followed orders. There was nothing else to do.

that was alot for having nothing to say. sorry.

 

It is unfortunate to recount that American senior commanders initially believed that the failure of the Devastators to land a hit was due to them not pressing home the attack. The Devastators in fact made a detirmined attack but unfortunately courage will only take you so far.

 

I read your talk of dive bombers sinking battle ships. I know one who did it with a single bomb. Germany's top ace, Hans-Ulrich Rudel. In the early attecks on the Soviets, he sank a soviet battleship with one bomb from a Ju-87 divebomber. Then he went on to kill 519 tanks with a modified Ju-87. He won the Knights Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords, And Dimonds, the only man to do so. He also won a gold, platinum, and dimond pendant for flying 2000 missions (by the end of the war it was not uncommon for him to fly 17 missions a day in support of troops).

 

It is unfortunate to recount that American senior commanders initially believed that the failure of the Devastators to land a hit was due to them not pressing home the attack. The Devastators in fact made a detirmined attack but unfortunately courage will only take you so far.

Actually according to some accounts a torpedo hit was made during Midway, although it may have been achieved by a US submarine or one of the Devastators, accounts differ. However in keeping with the quality of US Torpedoes of the time it was a dud and ended up being used as an improvised lifeboat by Japanese sailors!

 

That torpedo, which hit the carrier KAGA, was fired by the submarine USS NAUTILUS (and no, she wasn't commanded by Captain Nemo).

 

On the second Hunters in the Sky tape, a jappanese pilot talks about watching a torpedo from a plane in torpedo sqaudron 8 (the one that went in alone and everybody but 1 guy died) drop, hit the water, and miss the bow of a carrier by a few feet. He said it was "so close". I bet he was really sweating on that one.

p.s. he was a Zero pilot and he shot down a bunch of guys in that attack.

 

I wouldn't doubt it; nailing a Devastator wasn't exactly the most difficult task in the world for a Zero.

 

what about nailing a carrier form a Devastator under heavy fie from flak and aircraft?