Edward Snowden reveals the 21th Centurys' Global Big Brother

Duly note about the tone, will use plently of smileys and winkeys here on out.

Interesting that the argument you provided above is not the same one you gave earlier.

Originally you said that,

1) employee draws paycheck
2) employess must be loyal to employer in the face of any/all activies witnessed due to paycheck

Now you say that

1) employee should blow whistle if activity witnessed is bad
2) employee must stay and take punishment from organization, whatever the cosequenses

Again we have an absolutist argument, and we all know how well those go over.

I'll repeat that I'm not a fan of Snowden, but you are setting expectations that just don't work for whistleblowers in the real world. History is full of examples of dissidents and whistleblowers that fled the control of the regimes they were acting against. It's pretty clear if Snowden had stayed in the US, he would be in a windowless cell somewhere, with limited access to an attorney, and fully muzzled from talking about these surveilance programs. If his goal was to create a high profile for these surveilance programs, it can be argued that he's doing a very, very good job of keeping that topic in the media spotlight.

I think TiredOldSoldier said it best in his post, the real isssue isn't really Snowden, it's a government conducting warrentless surveilance on all it's citizens.

Let me ask you this urgh: Do you agree with what the US government is doing? Do you freely submit to surveilance without cause or oversight? That for me is the main issue. I honestly find what Snowden did distasteful, but what the NSA is doing is far worse than simply distasteful. I read your posts and agree with some of what you write, but a complete focus on the criminality of this one man is misplaced. In my opinion you are ignoring the greater evil, and spending far too much energy vilifying Snowden.

 

Problems with privacy and surveillance were known before Snowdens 'revelations' and are of lesser importance. This scandal reveals much more important reasons to worry:

1. Development of Draconian government in a country that dominates the world and possesses vast arsenal of weapons for mass destruction.
2. Complete absence of sense for humanity, compassion for a life of a human being, the absence of care for a neighbor, a countryman.
3. Absolute absence of care for fate of many nations that became 'enemies of the state ', candidates for 'humanitarian attack'.
4. Preparedness to trade traditional human values for more wealth and more safety.

All the above are good reasons to be seriously concerned.

What happened to America who once was for all of us an embodiment of freedom and respect of human values?

 

If they were real I might agree. However again you confuse your opinions with facts.

 

Please, parse my post paragraph by paragraph, as usual, and I will explain you if there's anything unclear. I think you confuse relative wealth in your country with genuinely higher values.

 

... Meanwhile, a voice of reason:
Gordon Humphrey (R-New Hampshire) wrote the exiled Mr. Snowden to say, “you have done the right thing in exposing what I regard as massive violation of the United States Constitution.”

 

It's not facts ..... yet
But it's becomming increasingly difficult to find a difference between totalitarian states and the USA on quite a number of key liberty and human rights issues.
The gap is still large but it's decreasing every year, things that used to be absolute no-no, extra judicial assasination, torture, detention without trial are now allowed, if stll very rare, practices. Widespread surveillance is an addition to that list, and not the worst.
That sort of lowering of moral standards is cause for concern.
Even worse is the fact that US citizens and politicians don't seem to realize what the loss of the moral high ground and goodwill they are squandering for petty avantages could mean in the future. Hopefully finding that out will not be too big a shock, "shocked" armed to the teeth superpowers are a very bad thing.

 

US forced foreign authorities to hijack Bolivian president's plane. That's an act of terror. The US government made their own citizen a countryless person and indirectly imprisoned him on a territory of a foreign country. Now, president Obama is blackmailing president Putin to break the laws of his own country: Russia has no extradition treaty with the US. And yet – he insists, he wants his prey.

How can we understand that? Diplomacy? Now, re-read my previous post and think. Denial is a pleasant way to live with an unpleasant reality.

Some time ago we concluded in another tread that Ghenghis Khan was a great diplomat too.

 

I'm wondering why Tamino's "Draconian government" has not used it's vast arsenal of mass destruction to wipe the airport and Snowden off the face of the map? After all they have a "Complete absence of sense for humanity, compassion for a life of a human being, the absence of care for a neighbor, a countryman."

According to Tamino, Snowden should have been planted six feet under for some time now.

And yet...Snowden remains alive.

How is this?

 

But it's vast arsenal has already been used to wipe much more than just an "airport off the face of the map" because there was a wrong man at the wrong time and at the wrong place. The US army has wept the entire Afghanistan and is still weeping it dearly because allegedly there was a particular man, you know who. This has happened due to complete absence of sense for humanity and compassion for a life of a human being. Many innocent victims are planted six feet under for some time now. The same would have happened to Snowden and his refuge if he was entrapped in a bit smaller and weaker country.

Therefore, you may take my claims #1, #2 and #3 as a prooven facts. Regarding #4 ask people arround you what they prefer.

 

I have a suspicion some hundreds of still possibly functional Russian H bombs and delivery systems have something to do with the airport safety, hope it's not that but fear it is. Some recent US actions have shown no respect for moral principles, only fear of retaliation seems to be an effective check. IMHO it's not a coincidence the downwards trend started with the collapse of the USSR,.
Have we gotten to the point the world must put his hopes in the Chinese? A superpower with no external checks and which doesn't show self restraint is a very bad thing, though there are worse ones. This scares me, I don't understand Chinese culture and fear of the unknown is very human.

As a side note yesterday chancellor Merkel made a speech stating the very obvious fact that German laws applies to Germany, US court decisions making the data mining legal have no relevance in Europe, if I were an NSA employee I would have second thoughts about putting foot outside the USA until this mess is sorted out.

 

In which case....Thousands of NSA would be leaving the UK on first boat home...However...they remain very welcome as long as we scratch your back and ours is scratched too...

Lets get down to basics...

Are folk upset that the US as many of us have known have spied and are spying on their own citizens willy nilly without any comeback until now...Because if so then folk must have been asleep for some time now.
Oh and that goes for UK folk too...Its been a regular thing since my day and before...In fact my first attachment was to listen in to the French...our gallant ally...

Are folk upset that the USA and indeed Perfidious Albion are and always have been as ungallant as the Soviets ever were where intelligence gathering is concerned...Folk should be thankfull they were and even today in most cases are.

We should have more morals and take the high ground...does not work in the intelligence gathering community...it cannot be so. The game never stopped...its dirty...its nasty...it can taste bad...But is necessary. Or we would not be around talking like this today.

As for the Germans...don't believe a word of it...dipolomacy matters naught in the real underworld...Germany in my day and I cannot imagine any different today...is a major player and sharer of the information gained by UK and US..

The day Germany put a NSA or British int gatherer on trial for anything they have not signed on to themselves and it will snow sausages in Crete.

Germany were the masters and protectors of this stuff for decades in cold war...the places change...the pact does not.

The agreements are still in force..Germany may as Netherlands or Luxembourg....pay lip service in horror and shock...but that is for public only.

Snowdon needs to go home and fight his case...The days of Philby, Mclean and Burgess seeking sanctuary in Russia are long gone...mind...they did not do much different than he...maybe we should award those 3 medals of honour of some sort in retrospect.

Lets get rid of our monitoring systems...but then lets all look at enigma 2000 site on web...and take a look at the real world we live in. And lets go see how far we get with dismantling the Russian stations still massive..still active...in Cuba and elsewhere.

Spying on your own citizens is not nice...but its not new...why the outrage at this late stage.

 

Matey, if you want you can install a camera in your bedroom and connect it to the Skynet ...

 

I take you claims #1, #2, and #3 as proven false.

If they were true, the "Draconian Government" would be falling all over themselves to get Snowden out of Russia, and into one of the "smaller weaker" countries that have offered him asylum...except they aren't.

Afghanistan...I thought the US casualty rates were so high because they were/are operating with a sense of humanity and compassion for the life of a human being by doing their best to limit civilian casualties. FYI...Civilian deaths caused by anti-government forces greatly outnumber those civilians killed by US forces. Then again, perhaps you are OK with the Taliban killing Afghan civilians, since that is Afghan killing Afghan, and not a foreigner killing an Afghan.

Regarding #4, just don't ask anyone in New York City or Boston.

 

Seems that the Germans will be eating some "humble pie." Apparently, they were out "most prolific partner."
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/german-intelligence-agencies-used-nsa-spying-program-a-912173.html

 

I will respond to this later, but it appears that not every citizen is in induced mental coma:

Jimmy Carter Says U.S. Has No "Functioning Democracy"

@Takao: what death rate in Afghanistan would you require to say it is a bit too much? What is your treshold value to say: but this is barbaric aggression indeed !

 

If that quote was intended to impress, it has failed miserably.

Jimmy Carter is widely perceived by all segments of political theory in the US as one of the least effective Presidents in American history. I suspect that a decent guy at heart, he never should have risen to hold the most powerful political office in the world. He was not even a particularly effective politician. I say this because he managed to serve only one term in office despite immediately taking office after the worst political scandal in modern American history when both the Vice President and the President were forced to resign to avoid possible/probable impeachment.

In truth there is no perfect democracy, but ours still works in the main. Yes there are problems and there always will be, but unless we become a police state that forces every eligible voter to vote in every election, we will remain an imperfect project ever striding for an impossible perfection.

P.S. For the love of all that is holy, stop with the psychedelic posts, please!

 

I don't think it is appropriate to disqualify any opposite opinion in advance and, in the same time talk about democracy. Instead of stigmatizing the former President, please first read what's he has to say: HERE. and then say what's wrong with his opinion. Not the opposite. Our views obviously differ too but I never called anyone "psychedelic". We just talk and have opposite opinions; that's all. Peace, for sake of freedom and democratic exchange of opinions.

 

I was referencing the multi color font. Very distracting for some us with older eyes.

As for Mr. Carter, I lived in this country during his administration, and he was instrumental in turning me into a conservative voter. A well meaning gentleman, but I have no use for his political opinions as I have heard them before.

 

Ah I see, it was also a burden to me to apply so many different colors to each individual letter. I will never do that again: it would be easier for all of us.

Regarding american presidents, I know you will laugh or at least you will be completely astonished: my favorite was Reagan. He was so amusing, so clear, straightforward, charming and a great showman. What I liked about him especially is that he somehow gave hope to all of us in Central Europe that changes to better would come soon. And I think he did so much to change the World for better. But after Reagan, for me, America as a state started to decline, especially in the field of human rights and peace in the World. Just read the international press and you will see that we, foreigners, non-Americans are not against America but want her to be again what it used to be once.

 

Depends on how you define barbaric.

On the average 6,000 Americans per year die due to accidental falls. In the past decade, drunk drivers killed about 10,000 - 12,000 people per year(IIRC, only recently did that number drop below 10,000). Guns are used to commit about 11,000 homicides per year, and guns are used in about 19,000 suicides per year.

Now, given that Afghanistan's population is about 11% of that of the United States and using UNAMA statistics for Afghanistan - Civilian deaths due to pro-government forces(as a percetage of population) does not even reach as high as the level of accidental falls: 572(yearly average 2007-2012) vs 600. Now, factoring in "pro-government" and "other" as causes for civilian deaths in Afghanistan, puts it just below the drunk driving & gun murder levels: 907 vs 1100/1210.

So, while civilian casualties in Afghanistan are regrettable, they fall far below my definition of barbaric.