Elephant/Hetzers in Berlin...

found this on Achtung Panzer...

"As of January 1st of 1945, there were still 4 Elephants in service of which some took part in the defence of Berlin as part of Kampfgruppe Ritter."

 

OK, The Ebay book I was looking for is:

Halbe 1945 - Durchbruch in den Untergang - Fragmente von Zeitzeugen

by Eberhard Baumgart

Ergreifender Bericht über die Kämpfe im Kessel von Halbe aus Sicht ehem. Angehöriger der 32. XX-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division "30. Januar" und schwere XX-Panzerabteilung 502 Königstiger.

So, about the 32 SS Div "30. Januar" and Schwere SS Panzer Abt. 502 with the Koningstiger. Again, not so much Berlin, but Halbe...

Yes, Erich, Ryan doesn't give a OOB but does mention a lot of units. I haven't read it obviously for many years, but remember it as the best Berlin book I have read.

 

Erich, isn't this a bit too detailed list to be putt together by two veterans, who BTW also weren't there at the time.

 

[ 04. October 2003, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: Erich ]

 

Erich,

The stories of these two men have been documented, right?

 

[ 04. October 2003, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: Erich ]

 

I have no doubts about the OoB but rather the ability of veterans to recolect such a detailed information, which I'm sure they wouldn't be able to find in Koblenz's archives.

 

[ 04. October 2003, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: Erich ]

 

[ 04. October 2003, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: Erich ]

 

Erich you should have stayed with the Waffen-SS or Heer not those damn fly boys .

Anyway the reason I asked is because this same OoB (even the units are in the same order) is also in Tieke's Das Ende zwischen Oder und Elbe (without a few spelling errors) and from what I gather you also own this book so this made me wonder...

 

[ 04. October 2003, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: Erich ]

 

sorry to have to edit gents, but the information was from the Bundesarchiv's and even though purchased privately through my uncle is obviously what has been put into several books so it had to be deleted, as well as info on my two friends at their requests........

~E

 

As an update on this old one- the Combat History of the 653rd Heavy Anti-Tank Unit does contain a snippet about the last two functional Elephants fighting in the Berlin area at the end of the war.
Don't have the source on me at work, so I'll have to update later tonight (*not* after going to the pub ).

It's only a small bit- but it does mention the two Elephants, the approximate area where they fought, and where the vehicles remained after they were abandoned/taken out.

I'll update later tonight.

 

You must have a memory like an...er...well, an amazing memory to dredge this thread from the depths, Crazy !

That certainly sounds like a valuable book - I've never even seen a copy....

 

Sounds great CrazyD! Waiting for it with interest!!

 

I wonder who would be mad enough to keep two Ferdinands working to so late, just the mechanical fort to keep them running, find the parts, etc would be sheer hell.

I am waiting for your documentation. I know what difficulties I pass through with my small fleet of excavators with a parts depot in the same town. I can't imagine what it might have been working with these machines of dubious reliability and with a production series of only 90 units! Quite frankly I'll take a lot of convincing.

 

Wow... this might be the most anticipated Crazy post in a while!
And Martin- suprisingly, given some aspects of my past history , I can still recall a very good number of the "stand out" threads we've had here. 'Course, don't ask me what the wife was talking about last night at the pub...

All of this is from the book I noted in the "What are you reading now" thread- Combat History of German Heavy Anti-Tank Unit 653 in WW2 by Karlheinz Munch, Stackpole softcover version of the hardcover JJF book of the same title.

Here's what I found... The unit in discussion here is the 2/ s.PzJgr.Abt 653, which in Dec. 1944 was reconstituted with 14 operational Elephants and redesignated s.PzJgr.Kp 614.

The first tidbit- pg 269, a photo of an Elephant with some crew sitting on the deck and standing in open hatches. The caption- " The last four Elephanten operated in the Konigswusterhausen, Zossen and Berlin areas. Most of the support elements of s.PzJgr.Kp 614 managed to break out of the Berlin encirclement."

Second bit, and probably most telling, from pg. 227- Munch quotes a letter from fellow WW2 historian Wolfgang Fleischer, written to Munch in 1995. Without quoteing the whole passage:
"... more precise facts about the final combat operations of the Elephant tank destroyer. An eyewitness from Teupitz described the following scene: One Elephant remained on the main ramp at Mittenwalde and was scrapped two years later. ... The second Elephant occupied a firing position in Klein Koris... and ended the war there. Both of these vehicles made it to the Berlin innner-city area and took part in the fighting at the Karl-August-Platz and Trinity Church. Polish and Soviet troops captured them there on 1 May 1945."

Apparently Fleischer also included an attachment detailing the unit's vehicle strength from Sept 44 through the end of the war- and according to this, as of 15 January 45, the unit still had 14 Elepants operational. Like Za suggested- quite a credit to the maintenance crews, if this is accurate!

Final bit- at least the last one I've found so far- the former deputy-commander of the 614th, Leutnant Heinrich Teriete, wrote to Munch in a letter from 1988. After being wounded a couple times, he returned to the 614th (date unclear). "We took over the last remaining Ferdinande/Elephanten in the Berlin area. We were a seperate company. We never had the Konigstiger or Jagdtiger. We only recieved a tank with five turrets (??). The crew abandoned the vehicle during the final fighting for the Zossen training area near Berlin. My vehicle was knocked out and I was captured..."
This one os rather odd- Teriete mentions taking over the last Elephants, but then also mentions a 5 turret tank?! I'm guessing what this means is the unit took over the last two Elephants *AND* recieved a 5 turret tank- although that alone calls this last bit into some question. Did the germans ever have a 5-turret tank? I guess I could imagine something to the effect of a "museum piece" being forced into action during the last days of the war...

So, gents- that's what I've found so far from the Munch book. What do we make of it? Of course the book has no photos of any Elephants in Berlin- that would really be the proof-positive, a confirmable, date-able photo. But without that...

Very interesting stuff. Amazing that- if accurate- the maintenance crews were actually able to keep 2-4 Elephants running literally until the very end of the war.

 

The '5-turret tank' may remain a mystery forever and could even be faulty memory.

I don't recall seeing reference to any German multi-turret projects but the Russians certainly had them in the shape of the T-28, T-35 and T-100 battle tanks. I'd be tempted to say that maybe the Germans captured one of these and pressed it into service but by 1945 these were museum pieces and I can't imagine any of them making it to the gates of Berlin...?

 

CrazyD, I am amazed! As for the 5-turret tank I am sure we will never know...

 

I actually thought of this last night, but was in the midst of gaming (Dungeons and Dragons online... heh, an MMO for olds farts like me!) so couldn't follow up-

The "original" Panzer V was a multi-turret tank. Not 5 turrets- but 3. A quick websearch (at work) yielded this- it's from a wargaming site, but pretty sure it's accurate nonetheless-

http://www.wargamer.com/Hosted/Panzer/multitur.htm

image-

So I wonder- either this could be a mis-recollection, as Martin suggests... ( I'll resist comment on the reliability of primary sources )- Or- is it possible that one of these tanks from 1940 not only survived, but actually made it back to Berlin to end the war?
Or the captured Russian tank option...

Very interesting stuff. I love these aspects of WW2 where we really DON'T have a lot of info- things where we have to do some guesswork, throw ideas around, etc.
Fun stuff!

It has crossed my mind... an IMPOSSIBLE wish, but how awesome would it be if we could find a list of EVERY armored fighting vehicle that fought in the Berlin area during the last month of the war? I bet it would provide an incredibly interesting picture of the hodgepodge of random vehicles that were all being forced into action this late in the war...

An impossible list to produce, most likely, but still...