End of the war on the Eastern Front?

It would be better for the Germans, but not for everyone else. The lion’s share belongs to the lion along, because the world is not enough for everyone to live happily ever after.

 

On the other hand I have no quarrel with a Germany of before. I have no quarrel with the Germany of Herman Hesse, Erich Maria Remarque, of Goethe, Schiller, Brecht, Musil, Thomas Mann, Karl May and his Western stories I loved in my youth, the Grimm brothers, Erich Kästner which I also read when young, musicians like Bach, either Johann Sebastian, Karl Phillip Emmanuel, Friedemann, and Frau Bach, Magdalena who also composed, Händel, Beethoven, Brahms, Gluck, Otto Klemperer who had to flee, Emil Quantz who taught music to Friedrich the Great, Richard Wagner who had no fault others saw crazy things in his music, Telemann, Mozart who as an Austrian but we will throw him in too, Mendelssohn, Pachelbel, Schumann though I don't like him ver much, Carl Maria von Weber, painters like Dürer, Holbein, Chodowiecki, Adolf von Menzel (the second 'von'on this list!, Lucas Cranach, both Elder and Younger, Burgkmair, Klee, Carl Spitzweg who painted the good life!

No, Germany has not lost its great culture, on the contrary it was able to let this brief Dark Age pass and let Germany be German: a great beacon of Civilization.

 

And if I may quote a Spaniard, I will quote Miguel de Unamuno, rector of the university of Salamanca.

"...But now I have heard this insensible and necrophilous oath, "¡Viva la Muerte!", and I, having spent my life writing paradoxes that have provoked the ire of those who do not understand what I have written, and being an expert in this matter, find this ridiculous paradox repellent. General Millán-Astray is an invalid. There is no need for us to say this with whispered tones. He is an invalid of war. So was Cervantes. But unfortunately, Spain today has too many invalids. And, if God does not help us, soon it will have very many more. It torments me to think that General Millán-Astray could dictate the norms of the psychology of the masses. An invalid, who lacks the spiritual greatness of Cervantes, hopes to find relief by adding to the number of invalids around him."

"This is the temple of intelligence, and I am its high priest. You are profaning its sacred domain. You will succeed, because you have enough brute force. But you will not convince. In order to convince it is necessary to persuade, and to persuade you will need something that you lack: reason and right in the struggle. I see it is useless to ask you to think of Spain. I have spoken."

"Vencereis, pero no convencereis"? No, they did not win.

 

Before there was Holy Roman Empire, there was Charlemagne. Before there were medicines in Germany from the east, there was Frederick Barbarossa. Before a modern Prussia, there was Frederick the Great.
After Charlemagne, there was the Peace of Westphalia. After Frederick Barbarossa, there were the Khans. After Frederick the Great, there was Napoleon.
I saw that you have described the enjoyments the Germans brought forth. Before there were schools, there must be teachers. Before there were teachers, there must be bread. Before there was bread, there must be war and death.
Look back into history, nations begun to decline after they reach their ultimate point of both glory and wealth. But look at the Spartans, no pleasure was enjoyed by them, no nation dared to fight them. The enjoyments can only weaken the bones of people, wars make them strong. Nations can only endure time not with its ability to enjoy pleasure, but with its ability to bear sword. How can you say a nation is great when it is constantly in danger of being conquered?
And if I may quote a German, I will quote Bismarck. “Not by speeches and votes of the majority, are the great questions of the time decided-that was the error of 1848 and 1849-but by iron and blood” (Speech to the Prussian Diet).

 

Nowadays there are schools, there are teachers, there is bread, and there is war and death too. You prove nothing.

Curiously nearly all the names I quoted were from a time before the "glory and "wealth". Your argument proves nothing.

The "wars that make them strong" came afterwards, and in the end destroyed the power of the German state. Again you prove nothing. And the Spartans were not an invincible fighting machine, left no mark on history - where are their temples, their statues to remember them, their Acropolis? there aren't any - and after a prolonged period of decline they were quashed by the Macedonians. You know nothing of Ancient history or you would raise the Spartans example. This helps you prove nothing.

200, 500, 1000, 2000 years later noone cares how "great" - better yet, militarily powerful, if that's what you mean by great - a nation was, but how deep a mark it left on civilization. What mark did the Reich leave? Hugo Boss uniforms.

"Iron and Blood" was what brought down the III Reich to rubble. They were stupid enough to bring against them nations that could mete out Iron and Blood in much larger amounts.

 

Well, I think the allies would actually be more than upset. I think they would have tried to push on to Berlin and Moscow (Especially Patton ) . Something else: What about a new front after a U.S. + Canadian invasion via Alaska ?

 

Man....So according to this scenario the Allies are now at war with Germany and its allies, Russia and its allies and Japan.

Wonder what the outcome might be?

I am also curious to find out how far Patton might have gone into Russia?

 

Patton would probably not be able to get through Germany before the end of 1945, but in such a terrible situation, which would only happen to the allies because they had no choice, they would have no alternative than using another atomic bomb on Germany. A seperate peace could then be attempted with Germany and the allies could maybe get to Russia from both sides. Of course I never said that they would win.. But I believe they would at least give it a try.

 

So, let's see; Stalin reaches a seperate peace with Hitler sometime in early 1944 and likely before the Normandy invasion (Bargration and the Soviet 44 summer offensive would have only emboldened Stalin to continue given its success). For the Western Allies this would have been a MAJOR slap in the face after the Yalta conference. I have little doubt that the Soviets would have found themselves cutoff from lend-lease materials virtually immediately.
Such an agreement would also have reprecussions on the Pacific war. Does the Soviet Union declare war on Japan? If so, does the US grudgingly give lend-lease support? Would the Soviets declare war on Japan if the US withdrew this support?
If the Soviets do attack Japan they will very likely overrun a big chunk of China in short order. The Japanese are unlikely to surrender just because of this. Do US and US supported Chinese forces have relationship problems with the Soviets? For instance, the 20th AF flying B-24 and B-29s against targets in China and Japan might now be flying over Soviet controlled areas. How does the US coordinate their activities with the reticent Soviets (they were this way historically) who also view any aircraft and crews that emergancy land in their territory as virtually potential enemies?
In Europe the Western Allies likely would have continued the war to a conclusion. The Germans likely win the vaporized city award instead of the Japanese who come in a close second a bit later on. How much more mobilization would the US Army have to make to fight the majority of Germany's army later in 1944 and into 1945. Certainly, the US has the potential to raise far more divisions that they did but, this takes time.
What would the trade situation between Russia and Germany be? Would Stalin be willing to trade at all given that Germany was just a war with them? Do Romania, Hunguary, and other eastern nations that are allied with Germany continue to fight at all?
I suspect that the Allies might postpone their invasion for another few months while continuing their operations in Italy. Strategic bombing and the air campaign snuffs the Luftwaffe just as it did. The negligible contribuiton of Eastern Front aircraft making no difference.
Jets? By Jan - Feb 1945 both sides have useful flying models. The German ones have a pitifully short operational life due to poor manufacturing quality and lack of resources to make reliable jet engines.
Ballistic and guided missiles? The US could go ahead with a plan to fire 5000+ copies of the V-1 into Germany per month starting in October or November 1944 (yes, they actually considered this and Ford Motor Company was getting tooled up to do just this). The V-2 is surpassed in early 1945 by Convair's MX 774 while Germany's program is about maxed out at its original level.
The British and US manage by 1945 to achieve balance in the tank game with their M 26, M 34, Comet, and Centurian and related vehicles.
The ASW campaign still turns out in favor of the Allies. Yes, the Type XXI makes a dent, but the Allies improve their capabilities to counter it as well.
On the whole, the Western Allies still defeat Germany. Since Stalin stopped short of taking Poland and Eastern Europe these nations remain in the West's pocket rather than as Soviet puppet states.
China would likely still have a falling out with the Soviets by the 60's. Japan would still surrender to the US in the end. The Soviets lack the means to actually invade the Japanese home islands making their participation limited to China if the Soviets choose to participate in the Pacific war at all.
I see such an option as a losing situation for the Soviets all around. They are in a far weaker position postwar than they were historically.

 

Anouther aspect to consider is that Churchill's party lost the election and FDR dies during the war. Do you think Truman and Churchill's replacement have the political power to convince the people at home to continue the war without the USSR ?

 

Very interesting T.A. There would even be an alternative. By sending V2 type rockets (manufactured by Ford) to Germany, a nuclear bomb could be avoided and maybe force Germany to surrender and therefore send less infantery and Airforce that could be saved for elsewhere. Also once Gemrany would surrender rockets could be send to Russia from Prussia/Poland and other countries that would not want to be rules by the Soviets.

 

I thought according to this scenario, after the Germans agree to peace, Russia moves into previously conquered Soviet territory ( poland )
and keeps Eastern Europe in its possession.

Am I mistaken??

 

Russia would move west until Eastern Poland (the Brest Littow Border ) Lwov + the Baltic countries, not Western Prussia (Posen) . I suppose the Germans would want to keep the General Govenrment and the annexed territories. They would probably have to give up some smaller territories such as Pleskau, Memel etc.. but Russia would probably be more interested in taking over Romania and it's oil fields (and blackmail Germany with gas supplies, just in case) and Bulgaria without a fight. I would guess Western Poland would be a buffer zone to prevent new agressions.

 

OK that is what I thought as well ( territory wise )

 

Yes but there is one thing that still bothers me. How could Hitler and Stalin trust each other after all this fighting? The first one who would turn his back would be attacked again, soon or late.

 

I agree.........then again this is a "what if" thread soooooo I just smile and nod

 

It's just funny imaging what could have happened, there are so many criteria that would have changed this "what if" a thousand times, but it's just nice to think about different situations and I enjoy these talks.

 

Whilst we can't do much about Rosevelts death, if the war was continuing I'm not so sure Churchill would have been voted out. Atlee was voted in to help with post war Britain, but if the war wasn't over, who knows....

 

I agree , Churchill was a warrior, not a peace time politician and was popular as long as the war went on. He would have been essential to boost the morale of both civilians and soldiers.

 

I'm not sure if Churchill could survive a political backlash, with Russia now at peace with Germany granted one hell of a fragile peace. Churchill would had a heck of a hard time to stay in office, as some political persons could use this as a opportunity to throw a spanner in the works resulting in a possible political change.

From the American point of view would America turn up the heat on the political front and call for some sort of cease fire? Another issue here or so would the plotters against Hitler gone ahead with an assassination attempt?