Finland had captured Leningrad

Like I said nationalists...

 

Besides Finland didn´t attack USSR until they bombed Finland, so we didn´t start the war this time either between us. This is well confirmed by the Russian documents and politicians since, which is quite rare by them if you ask me. They did also admit having fired the "Mainila" shots that "started" the winter war some two years ago.

Also we didn´t cut the Murmansk rail road and held our troops from attacking in the Karelian isthmus ( USA pressure ) so even if some made big talks not much was done to make Great Finland. It was Mannerheim himself holding the troops!

And like I have said earlier we should have taken part into the war more eagerly as taking Leningrad would have released troops for Moscow front ( or southern front ) by germans.

Anyway, Andy, great stuff. You know alot on Finland.

 

Yes, i take responiblilty for holding back my men in the Isthmus area, However i do believe the Finland should get karelia back.

 

C'mon!

Finno-German talks re: "Operation Barbarossa" started May 25. By June 5, it was agreed between Finnish Army Command and German military officials that Finnland will join the war, as soon as the Soviets gave them a "provocation to be able to do something". Ryti was O.K. with that.

Finnish mobilization started on June 16, after Hitler ensured Ryti again that he was going to invade the USSR as planned.

On June 18, the entire Finnish 3rd Korps was put under German command.

From June 18 onwards, German minelayers we operating from Finnish harbours against Soviet waters.

Since June 22, German aircraft of Luftflotte 5 was operating against Soviet targets from Finnish airfields.

German forces got any help from the Finns except shooting by themself.

To sum it up: The Finns commited themself to go to war against the USSR together with the Germans; they just hoped for a "casus belli" to justify their aggression. Joined military meetings to plan "Barbarossa" in the Northern sector, own mobilization, the offering of their entire country as a operation basis for the German Army, Navy and Air Force and putting substantial parts of her troops under German command caused the Russians to bomb Finnish territory (one might also say: bomb German military who happen to operate from finish soil ).

Hope I'm right here, too

P.S.: Finnland _was_ occuping non-Finnish (acc. to the Dorpat peace treaty 1920) territory: Eastern Karelian. Period.

P.P.S: You're the first Finn I met who considerered Ryti and Tanner being "nationalists"! Guess you even have a MOTOROLA mobile.

Cheers,

[ 25 August 2002, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: AndyW ]

 

Nice one!

And no, I don´t have motorola...

Eh, Ryti and Tanner were sent to prison as war criminals, so I guess that makes them nationalists. But that´s my problem. I just wonder that you Andy tell things like those about them and wonder why I think they are nationalists? At least telling things like that should prove that you agree?

Anyway, all politicians were more or less nationalists back then, and one of the reasons that winter war begun was the Finnish naive politics, the center core of which was despise of USSR. Then again even if we had been any different I don´t think it would have changed much.

The best example of those times is our beloved president Urho Kekkonen. At the tender age of 17 a firing squad leader, during the 40´s wrote strong words for germany in papers under the name " Pekka Peitsi ". During 1943 his words softened and later on his writings were for USSR´s good. Quite a turn of jacket, but somehow he did it without losing his face.

Whatever. Finland´s hopes of victory were totally dependent on Germany´s success. And so the speeches totally followed the German´s luck in the battle field.

 

Sorry Andy if I understood you wrong.Maybe you meant Nokia not Motorola,as the latter made the whole sentence sound out of place.I´m sorry.

 

Well, I agree that the USSR attacked Finland. And if Finland would have had posibilities (along with Germany, of course) of defeating the USSR it had right to have its territories and other ones more back.

Excellent info on the Finnish forces, Kai!

 

deleted

[ 26 August 2002, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: AndyW ]

 

So if (hypothetical) Sweden allowes Norway to bomb Finnland from Swedish airfields, if Sweden allowes Norwegian warships to operate from her harbours against Finnland, if Sweden put a substantial part of her Army under Norweguian control and if Sweden allows her territory to become a full, unrestricted operation basis for Norway, and Finnalnd is bombing Swedish territory because they are under attack from Swedish territory, this would be a clear act of Finnish aggression and Finnland caused the war and is guilty of it?

I'm just trying to get a clear picture how you people define "aggressor".

Maybe I'm somewhat simple minded, but I think if my country plans a joint military operation and allow another nation to operate from my territory, if my country supports it and put her own military under the other countrie's command, if my country sends her subs to mine the other nation's harbour before I declare war, I can't complain being called an "Aggressor".

"The idea to attack an enemy first, is new. Finnland is thankful that the German operations will starting earlier, and hopes to be provoked by the Russians in order to attack."

General Heinrichs to German Army officials on June 5, 1941

See also: M. Jokipii: "Jatkosodan synty. Tutkimuksia Saksan ja Soumen sotilaallisesra yhteistyöstä 1940-1941" (The Development of the Continuation War. Research of the military cooperation between Germany and Finland 1940-1941), 1987 or H.-P. Krosby: "Soumen valinta 1941" (Finnlands Choice 1941), 1967

Cheers,

[ 26 August 2002, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: AndyW ]

 

Ok Andy, let´s go! You want , you got it.

This is why things happened. This is not a quote this is all the 30´s and the winter war and the 1941-1944 war.

First of all remeber that there´s only 4 million of us. Some 650 000 soldiers if all were sent to the front. Not 3.5 not even 1 million. In a longer period we couldn´t stand a chance with russians. No gross karelia, nada!

From Jokipii´s " Hitler´s germany and volunterr movements 2002 "

For decades the nationalist´s groups had spoken for Great Finland, the right wing politics fell apart though in Finland in the beginning of the 1930´s. In 1932 after the Mäntsälä riot there were none more, and in 1939 parliament elections IKL ( patriot national movement) got only 7% of the votes. The communist party was forbidden in the 1930´s. So there were no right wing politics and not a single national socialist was elected for the parliament ever(!) in Finland. The main stream of Finnish politics was neutrality in all possible ways.

Germany offered a non attacking deal in april 1939, which was refused by Finland. We wanted to stay neutral. At that point the eastern force was not noticed in anyway and army was not taken care of. In 1938 russia closed in on matters on Leningrad safety and Hanko, Finland refusing to accept any deals and often refusing to send even any diplomats.
During winter war germany used the april 1939 situation as an excuse not to interfere, as well as the agreement with Russia, which probably was more important.

In the newspapers at the time nazi Germany was not symphatized and the treatment of jews was seen awkward, negative.In 1940-1941 there were four main political national socialist groups in Finland, none of which got much support. Also Germany , as later on was due, never had negotiations with these groups but with the Finnish government. This was unlike the German occupied countries and gave Finland a different olace compared to them.

So we were´t at the time making Great Finland and nor did we later on except for few crazy politicians and soldiers as we have seen. They somehow were cured during the war...

During the winter war Finland was alone fighting the Russians, the help we got was merely words, the allied would have sent troops no further than Swedish iron mines probably. later on we were totally stranded, no help anywhere. Russians got their part, and 4-5 times the war between us was about to start after winter war.If England would have been invaded by Germany, Russia would have entered Finland immediately, anyway.

After loss of battle of England Hitler wanted to attack Russia and also Finland came into picture. In autumn 1940 Molotov wanted to get free hands on Finland, which Hitler denied at that point. In January 1941 general oberst Halder informed Finnish general Heinrichs that Germany may go to war with Russia. This was top secret, and even in Finland this was not released further than the top politicians ( further ) until june 22nd 1941.Finland´s national leader group Ryti, Tanner and Mannerheim ( the latter two not in the government, Ryti president at the time ) were sent to hear on matters. After this the Finnish politics was changed dramatically towards Russia, as being aggressive. This was not enough as Mannerheim wanted to resign on 10th February as the new politics were too soft for his liking. Ryti persuaded him to stay and continue. Our Moscow ambassador Paasikivi wanted to leave after the new politics, unaware of the German connection
This was granted in May 1941.

In the spring Finland also wished to send men to Wehrmacht, but ended in Waffen SS as mortgage.

During spring wishes of Karelia being returned were lifted among the highest levels of government, but nowhere else.

On 25.5. 1941 in Salzburg and Berlin negotiations continued with general Heinrichs, and were confirmed in Helsinki in the beginning of june 1941.

According to this Finland would not automatically join the war unless attacked by Russia. Also Finland would not have a puppet government like Norway etc.Germany agreed on this. As Germany declared war on Russia the text was wrong as Finland was not yet part of the war.
This may not seem important now but in 1944 it was as Finland made separate peace with Russia.

In Pekka Kantakoski´s book " Red panzers" 1998 the red army planes flew on 23-24.6. over Finland, and Germany asked Finland to attack.The Finnish government refused. On 25.6. as russians attacked and bombed Helsinki war was seen inevitable with Russia.

On 9th september Finnish troops stopped 20-30 kms from Leningrad as ordered by Mannerheim.Finns never bombed Leningrad. This was already in the first plans on 25.6. by Mannerheim.During december 1941 Finns reached the three isthmus situation in all karelia ans stopped the attack. Fighting stopped literally for Finns for 2.5 years. Men were freed to go home, army was cut down from 450 000 to 320 000. Every one over 35 was sent home to work.

In march 1942 Hitler insisted on attacking Soroka, where the Viena canal starts. This would have cut off the Murmans railway. The plan was offered to Ryti, who gave it to mannerheim, who refused to attack. " We´ll attack Soroka once you first take Leningrad " he said.

in 1943 after Stalingrad the Finnish military observers saw that germany would lose the war. On 3.3.1943 in Mikkeli ( Ryti president, Linkomies PM ) new peace negotiations were decided to begin. USA promised Finland on 20.3.1943 " good favours" on gaining peace.The Russian´s demand were too much though. Germany was angered by this and for a while stopped helping Finland. The supplies started again as Germany decided that not helping Finland would not ge in their interest in the long run.

In june 1944 during the Russian major attack president Ryti made the Ribbentrop pact which bound him with Germany. We received aeroplanes,ammunition etc. After the battle ended Ryti resigned and the pact with Germany ended. Mannerheim was elected president on 4th august and peace with Russians was made later on.

Ryti was Finland´s first president to have been elected by foreign powers. In 1940 Russia and Germany told who were not suitable, and Ryti was one of germany´s favourites. So he was not a democratically elected president.

All in all we had no army to make great Finland, no extremists as well. Ryti, Tanner and Mannerheim went into the nazi plan hoping the get Karelia back, nothing else.I believe the text I wrote proves it.Also the strategy during the war makes no proof of such idea, as defending Finland was the main issue by Mannerheim.Ryti and ´Tanner were sent to prison by Russian demands after court for war criminals.

And as to the not attacking on 22nd june. It was tactical.

You better buy a NOKIA now Andy...

 

I already have a Nokia, but I didn't know that the overcome, apologetic "we-were-so-peaceloving-but-the russkies-attacked-us-in-1941"-LIE is still common in Finnland. I though current histography get rid of that myth since the 1970-ies

Let's skip the interesting, but nonetheless irrelevant parts of your post and concentrate on the basic time period, say May to July 1941. Whether Finnish politicians LATER appeased the USSR orr skiped her "suur-Soumen"-dreams is irrelevant. The fact that they had no axe to grind (facing the obvious "interest" the Soviets had in her country) might be a needful context to understand that time, but doesn't change the facts.

Sorry that I have to nail you on this, but i have the impression that you're running away from answering my basis questions.

My basic questions (and I still have not seen any comments on that from your side) are:

Did Finland occupy non-Finish (acc. to international law) territory espc. East-karelia? The answer to me is yes.

Was Finland informed by the Germans that Gy will invade the USSSR? Yes.

Did they enter military joint talks regarding a joint military operation against the USSR? Yes.

Did Finland put parts of her Army under German control, fully aware that those units will be part of a German attack on the USSR: Yes

Did Finnland voluntarily gave 8 (?) airfields on her territory to the Germans from which they bombed Soviet targets beginning June 22? Yes.

Were parts Finnish territory put under German military control and did the Finnish authorities gave her OK for that? Yes.

Were German minelayers allowed to operate from finnish harbours against the USSR?
Yes.

Were 30,000+ German soldiers operating from Finnish soil, with the full acknowledgement and support by Finnish officials? Yes.

Did Finnish submarine boats lay mines on Soviet waters BEFORE June 25? Yes.

Was Finland a fully commited ally to germany, sharing her weird Lebensraum-philosophy or racial, anti-jewish goals? NO.

Did leading Finnish generals and politicians seek for any "casus belli" to justify a Finish agression against the USSR? Yes.

Is it justified for a nation to defend herself if being under attack from the soil of a third, nation, who happen to dispense her authority largely under those of the attacking nation, who put her troops under this attacking nation's control and who is starting a mine warfare against my nation? YES!

Is it a national catastrophy for some Finns to reckognize those facts and admit that you're knee-deep involved in "Operation Barbarossa"? Why? Dark spots on you clean vest? I really don't get it: It's history, face it.

Cheers,

 

In my earlier messages in this section by me:

"And like I have said earlier we should have taken part into the war more eagerly as taking Leningrad would have released troops for Moscow front ( or southern front ) by Germans."

Cheers

 

Oh, damned hackers! I posted something here but I can't see it!

Well, it was about how interesting the info on Finland was, Kai. Thanks! Keep sharing!

 

I think this current hackers problem has been fixed--now to just get rid of the twin pests.

 

Phewww!!!

Finally it's over, Carl!!!

Was Rickee and that b... the hacker?!!!

 

Friedrich--I dont know but, all I do know is that kenny and rickee were one and the same.

Someone bought a box of Combat traps--set them out around the fridge, and patiently awaited for the twin roaches to come looking for crumbs. They thought they found some but, instead, got very trapped in the roach hotel. Once you check in----you never check out.