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Flying Rams and Air to Air Ramming

Discussion in 'Weapons & Technology in WWII' started by JCFalkenbergIII, Feb 23, 2008.

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  1. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    I have seen a few references about WWI rammings. I would think they would be more frequent due to the aircraft, speed and armament of that era
     
  2. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    hmmmm hope this is ok that you ripped on Neils web-site but he probably will not care, am sure he will see this and comment soon. there is a few tidbits of my contribution to the site on the bios
     
  3. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    Rather then cause a possible problem Ill just edit it away :).
     
  4. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    all you had to do was write and ask him he probably would of said yes as he is a forum member here
     
  5. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    Okies. I may do that.
     
  6. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    " Altogether in 1,237 combat sorties the regiment destroyed 77 enemy aircraft, of which one was by ramming. Captain A. F. Avdeev conducted a frontal attack on a Messerschmitt and neither pilot gave way. This was the first ramming incident in an Airacobra."

    Early Cobra's in Soviet Aviation
     
  7. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    "It might be argued that ramming attacks were not true suicide activities and do not qualify for inclusion in the history of the Tokkohtai effort because death was not certain. The exploits of SHINOMIYA and several others demonstrate this fact. SHINOMIYA attacked a B-29 on December 3, 1944, and brought himself and his damaged plane home. Another 244th man, Masao ITAGAKI, performed a similar feat on the same occasion, but had to parachute from his damaged fighter. A third pilot, NAKANO, of the Hagakure-Tai of the 244th got another B-29 and crash landed his stripped-down Ki-61 in a field. "

    Untitled Document
     
  8. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    I tend to agree with is. Especially in Europe. I think most were done out of desperation or frustration rather a willingness to die.
     
  9. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    I wonder if any of the rammers met the pilots or crews if either survived afterwards?
     
  10. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    Oddly enough it counts as neither. What was found to be most effecitve against the V-1 "buzzbombs" was to catch them from the rear, put one of the wings of your A/C under and slightly behind one of it's wings.

    No contact was needed, the removal of the "air flow" around the unit would throw it out of the air as an unstable platform.

    For fun see the same effect on NASCAR racing. A fellow driver can come up and "remove" your aero hold, and "bingo-bango" without even the car being touched; "yer into the wall". Less likely with the new COT bodies, but the effect was well known and used for years before.
     
  11. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    Exactly Clint. There was no need to have any physical contact at all.
     
  12. TA152

    TA152 Ace

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    I was re-reading your first post on the XP-79. I think Northrup really over stated the range of their aircraft when it said that The XP-79B had a range of 993 miles. It had two rocket engines and looks approx. three times the size of a Me-163, which only flew about 8 mins. Even if you zoomed up to 35000 feet and glided for awhile you would not go 993 miles.
    If it did go into production I would guess finding pilots to fly them would be hard to come by !
     
  13. Lippert

    Lippert Member

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    WWI rammings would probably have been more dangers - just think of how flimsy the construction was and how difficult it was to egress the aircraft.

    Rubbin's racin, but it ain't flyin.
     
  14. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    The first aircraft to bring down another in WWI was through ramming on September 8 by Russion pilot Pyotr Nesterov who died in the attack.
     
  15. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    the Northrop "ram" in the B version was jet not rocket powered, that was the A version. And I have never seen any data on it ever taking the air. Here is an excellent site concerning that unit:

    Northrop

    And this the home site of all the "wing" style planes built before the B-2 "Spirit" of today:

    http://www.nurflugel.com/Nurflugel/nurflugel.html
     
  16. TA152

    TA152 Ace

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    Thank you for the link and the correction. I had not even heard of the JB-1 and the JB-10 aircraft before ! The JB-10 kind of looks like the spy plane that was carried on the back of some of the SR-71's.
     
  17. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    LOL Things always look better on the Drawing Board LOL.
     
  18. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    Complete set of special grade (leather) Hero of the Soviet Union diplomas, and solid gold Hero star, awarded posthumously by Gorbachev, to Ekaterina ZELENKO for her successful ramming of a Nazi ME-109 fighter plane in September 1941, just before her fatal crash due to her bomber being attacked by five ME-109s, two (or three, according to one account) of which she destroyed before her death. Only 90 women were so honored for bravery against the Nazis; a museum in Kursk, Russia, is devoted specifically to her memory. She is the only woman ever to successfully bring down an enemy aircraft by ramming, which the Soviets called "taran"; hundreds of Soviet men had occasion to use this technique. She appears to have been the first woman to command men in mortal combat in WWII; she commanded a flight (three craft) of bombers from the start of Hitler's invasion of the Soviet Union. Previously, she was the first woman to fly in combat in WWII, in the war against Finland in 1939-1940. Zelenko's is the only complete female HSU set held outside of the ex-USSR. Incl. are books about Soviet WWII female aviation, and a full length biography of her, in Russian.

    worldclass
     
  19. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    "She appears to have been the first woman to command men in mortal combat in WWII; she commanded a flight (three craft) of bombers from the start of Hitler's invasion of the Soviet Union."

    I wonder how much this is true ? LOL
     
  20. JCFalkenbergIII

    JCFalkenbergIII Expert

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    Air warfare



    Ramming in air combat is a last-ditch tactic that was used when all else had failed. The ramming pilot could use his entire aircraft as a ram or he could try to destroy the enemy's controls using the propeller or wing to chop into the enemy's tail or wing. Ramming took place when a pilot ran out of ammunition yet was still eager to destroy an enemy, or when his plane had already been damaged beyond saving. Most ramming occurred when the attacker's aircraft was economically, strategically or tactically less valuable than the enemy's, such as by pilots flying obsolescent aircraft against superior ones or by single-engine aircraft against multiple-engine bombers. Defenders rammed more often than invaders.
    A ramming attack was not considered suicidal in the same manner as kamikaze attacks — the ramming pilot stands a chance of surviving, though it was very risky. Sometimes the ramming aircraft itself could survive to make a controlled landing, though most were lost due to combat damage or the pilot bailing out. Ramming was used in air warfare in the first half of the 20th century, in both World Wars and in the interwar period. In the jet age, as air combat speeds increased, instances of ramming became rare. It was too risky.
    The first known instance of ramming in air warfare was made over Zhovkva by the Russian pilot, Pyotr Nesterov on September 8, 1914, against an Austrian plane. That incident was fatal to both parties.
    Ramming (Russian: taran) was used in the Spanish Civil War. On the night of November 27-28, 1937 Soviet pilot Evgeny Stepanov flying a Polikarpov I-15 shot down one SM.81 bomber near Barcelona and emptied the rest of his bullets into another. The second SM.81 continued to fly, so Stepanov resorted to using the left leg of his Chaika's undercarriage to ram the bomber, downing the plane.[1]
    The first taran attack in World War II was carried out by the Polish pilot, Lt. Col. Leopold Pamuła with his damaged PZL P.11c on September 1, 1939, over Łomianki near Warsaw. (Taran is also a Polish word.)
    In World War II, ramming became a legendary technique of VVS pilots against the Luftwaffe, especially in the early days of the hostilities in the war's Eastern Front. In the first year of the war, most available Soviet machines were considerably inferior to the German ones and the taran was sometimes perceived as the only way to guarantee the destruction of the enemy. Trading an outdated fighter for a technologically advanced bomber was considered economically sound. In some cases, pilots who were heavily wounded or in damaged aircraft decided to perform a suicidal taran attack against air, ground or naval targets. In this instance, taran becomes more like an unpremeditated kamikaze attack (see Nikolai Gastello).
    Nine rammings took place on the very first day of the German invasion of the Soviet Union, one within the first hour. At 04:25 hours on June 22, 1941 Lt. I. I. Ivanov drove his Polikarpov I-16 into the tail of an invading Heinkel He 111. Ivanov didn't survive but was posthumously awarded the gold star, Hero of the Soviet Union.[2] Lieutenant Boris Kobzan survived a record four ramming attacks in the war. Alexander Khlobystov made three. Seventeen other Soviet pilots were credited with two successful ramming attacks. About 200 taran attacks were made by Soviets between the beginning of Operation Barbarossa and the middle of 1943, when enough modern aircraft had been produced to make the tactic obsolete (even if Russian fighter pilots were still trained to perform it). However, Evgeny Stepanov stated in an interview that more than 580 taran attacks were made by VVS pilots in WWII.[3]
    On 15 September 1940, Flight Sergeant Ray Holmes of No. 504 Squadron RAF used his Hawker Hurricane to destroy a Dornier Do-17 bomber over London by ramming but at the loss of his own aircraft (and almost his own life) in one of the defining moments of the Battle of Britain. Holmes, making a head-on attack, found his guns inoperative. He flew his plane into the top-side of the German bomber, cutting off the rear tail section with his wing and causing the bomber to dive out of control. The German crew were killed in the crash, while the injured Holmes bailed out of his plane and survived. As the R.A.F. did not practice ramming as an air combat tactic, this was considered an impromptu manouvre, and an act of selfless courage.
    The Japanese also practiced ramming. An example is the bringing down of a lone B-17 Flying Fortress The Flying Swede on May 8, 1942 by an Oscar. After three Japanese fighters had each made two attack passes, the bomber's pilot, Major Robert N. Keatts, made for the shelter of a nearby rain squall. Loath to let the bomber escape, Sgt. Tadao Oda made a head-on attack that resulted in ramming. Both aircraft were destroyed with no survivors. Sergeant Oda was posthumously promoted to lieutenant for his sacrifice.[4]
    Several rammings (Bulgarian: Таран taran) were performed by Bulgarian fighter pilots defending Sofia against Allied bombers in 1943 and 1944. The first one to do so was Senior Lieutenant (posthumously elevated to Captain) Dimitar Spisarevsky on December 20, 1943.[5]
    Late in World War II, Sonderkommando Elbe used ramming to try and restore the Luftwaffe to its former glory. Strategically, the operation was a failure. Although some pilots succeeded in destroying bombers, the skies were still controlled by the Allies.
    Presaging the 20th century air warfare ramming actions, H. G. Wells, writing in 1899 in his novel The Sleeper Awakes, has his main character, Graham, ram one of the enemy's aeroplanes with his flying apparatus, causing it to fall out of the sky. A second enemy machine ceases its attack, afraid of being rammed in turn. [6]

    Technique


    Three types of taran attacks were made:
    • Using the propeller to go in from behind and chop off the controls in the tail of the enemy aircraft. This was the most difficult to perform, but it had the best chance of survival.
    • Using the wing to cut off the wing or tail of the enemy aircraft. Some Soviet aircraft like the Polikarpov I-16 had wings strengthened for this purpose.
    • Direct ramming was the easiest to perform, but also the most dangerous.
    ramming: Definition and Much More from Answers.com
     
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