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Franco says yes.

Discussion in 'What If - Other' started by British-Empire, Mar 27, 2009.

  1. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    11. Spain and Turkey providing 40 divisions each?! - Neither had the industry that could support that number, They both historically told Hitler that if they where to even contemplate joining him that he would have to deliver a large amount of supplies and equipment, Hitler couldn't supply enough for one of them, And you saying that he could get both?! Your talking about arming a good 1 million men with tanks, planes, guns, artillery, train them etc etc in less then a year!

    The Spanish army had 32 Divisions at the time If I remember rightly and would mobilise another ten on entering the war.
    Turkey had 40 Divisions in 1940.
    They don't need to re-equip them all right away.
    Turkey will have around a year to do so before a 1942 Barbarossa and Spain even longer.
    The Germans will be able to off load a great deal of the older Panzers on them with another year of production.
    And what ever they can produce under license.
    By the time of a 1942 Barbarossa both armies will be mainly infantry armies.
    But they could also have 2 Armoured Divisions each.

    This will not be difficult with another full year with no war in the East.
    It will mainly be a case of supplying lorries as the Spanish would be best utilised in storming Leningrad.
    It need not even be stormed until the end of 1942 if but would likely be earlier.
    This allows plenty of time to bring supply lines forward.

    Have a look what the Soviet navy supplied Odessa, the Crimea and Savastapol with.
    Also the Axis logistics situation would improve greatly with supply shipping in the Black Sea.

    Now this is an interesting one.
    The Southern Caucasian Soviet Republics will fall quickly because of geographical problems for the Soviets and once round or over the Caucasus Mountains the Southern Caucasus will also fall.
    The problem then occurs depending on Soviet armoured resistance.
    The Germans will have 3 or 4 Armoured Divisions along with inferior Italian and Turkish Armour with this they will have to try and take Astrakhan and Stalingrad.
    Depends what the Soviets decide is priority Moscow or Stalingrad.

    These plans were all standard plans of German high command.
    Jodl and Admiral Raeder pushed for these in particular.
    Nothing fantastic about them.
    As for the Colonies being back in German hands that isn't fantastic either.
    Chamberlain was willing to see a return of the colonies in return for peaceful resolutions in Eastern European.
    He even spoke several times with the cabinet about giving Portuguese colonies to Hitler and even Cameroon to the Italians to keep them neutral.
     
  2. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    And you've been told divisions aren't good MOE's. For one thing in the field a US division was almost twice the size of a German division and as has been pointed out a US infantry division had more tanks than a German armored division. Then there's the fact that the Allies even minus the USSR have a vastly larger manpower pool to draw from and a vastly larger economy to equip them. Not to mention the fact that eventually German cities will start glowing in the dark.

    Not on the offensive in or near Egypt they can't.
     
  3. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    You think the Turks would join in before they got their equipment? Hardly.
    Supplying Spain with the food and oil required is going to be a real challenge for the Axis as well.
     
  4. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    Is this the comedy club now?

    If the Axis are not fighting the USSR the USA would have to mobilise around 600 Divisions to beat them.
    Of course deploying anything at one time that can hold off an Axis attack is impossible.


    We have been over this.
    It is quite clear they can.
     
  5. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    Not really they have plenty of Oil they can get from the USSR and why would the Turks need equipment right away (which they could still have mind with no war in the East) as the Germans will be doing the fighting.
    Turkey would get territorial concessions.
     
  6. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Are you sure about that? The Germans were well behind on their payments for Soviet materials when they launched Barbarossa. How much longer would the Soviets have put up with that? Particulalry if it looks like the Spanish and Turnks are going to join the Axis? Then there's the question of just how much oil the Soviets would have sold them any way.
    The Turks didn't really want "territorial concessions" at that point. Nor did they really want into the war. Hitler hadn't developed a reputation for living up to his deals either had he? So why would they get into a war that they didn't want enter based on the promises of someone who had shown that his word was worth nothing.
     
  7. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    At the very least another year as the Soviets would not be ready according to Stalin until 1942 atleast and according to the Soviet military 1943.

    He lived up to his deals with territory for Hungary in Banjat, Southern Slovakia and Transylvania.
    Bulgaria in Macedonia.
    Romania in Transistria.
    Etc.

    Turkey could be awarded Cyprus, Lebanon, Syria or Kurdistan.
     
  8. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    Plenty of oil they can get :haha:a little oil,they would not get,but would forced to pay,and,as Turkey was poor,.....
    Germany would do the fighting,and Turkey would get territorial compensations:that's how we know Adolf,always very generous,well,following his admirers.
     
  9. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    Etc:what etc???
     
  10. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    Croatia, Finland.
     
  11. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    It was the strategic access Hitler wanted not the Turkish army.
    Same with Romania and Bulgaria.
     
  12. belasar

    belasar Court Jester

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    This all assumes that Britain does not launch an attack on Germany's flank from Iraq/Iran.
     
  13. von_noobie

    von_noobie Member

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    He assumes that the Commenwealth forces if beaten in Egypt wouldnt fall back into the Middle East, If that is the case I would love to hear his suggestion on where they would fall back seeing as they did not have the shipping on hand to fall back nor the railways needed to transport them down to Sudan. From what I can tell there only choice would be the Middle East and in doing so put them in a stronger defensive position.
     
  14. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    Do you have any reliable sources for these figures? I have war gamed this repeatedly Spain usually has a peacetime army of 10 to 12 poorly armed divisions, with a mobilized strength perhaps double that. Turkey having slightly more (plus 3-5 Divisions). Neither had much of an airforce or navy.

    Figures I have for the Spanish Army in June 1940 are 27 divisions in Spain, 5 in morocco, 1 in Balerics and 1 in Canaries.
    Will see if I can find the source.


    Well apart from the fact they would have a year and year and half to equip their forces the forces of each nation sent would not have to be that great.
    If Spain sends 10 to 15 Infantry Divisions to aid Army Groups Norths capture their main purpose would be in the storming of Leningrad.
    This would only requite static infantry divisions brought up to the front.
    Turkey would be able to use its best equipped divisions in small numbers alongside the former Afrika Korps and the Italians.



    They may not be a match for the latest Soviet tanks but they would be useful against Infantry Divisions until they can get enough mk3 and mk4's.
    Of course as Spain is not sending any armour this wont be a problem and Turkey will have one Armoured Division which will assist the Italians and the ex-Afrika Korps take the Caucasian Republics.


     
  15. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    They would be up to G models by then which were more than capable of dealing with the T34.
    Plus the German Airforce would be far stronger.


    No?
    Where did you get this from?
    The Panzer Divisions will be in the East of Middle East.
    Spain will be expected to defend itself with the aid of German airpower.


    By the fact they will be mainly a static infantry force so this would be the best role for them.
    Also the Spanish troops have a lot of experience in urban warfare.

    Im totally discounting it because it wont happen.
    Much of the supply outside Europe will be by sea.




    It wouldn't need anymore supply than it did when in Libya in 1942.



    And if there is now a threat the Soviets will have to put troops where making them weaker in the face of the Germans in Europe.
    As for the Caucasus once the Southern Republics are captured the armour can be shipped round the Caucasus Mountains if need be.
     
  16. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    I assume nothing of the kind.
    The British will retreat to the Middle East.
     
  17. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    As usual,BE is giving as figures what suits him:the Spanish army had 32 units (called divisions) with a total strength of 340000 men,as the usual rule is that the non combat units were some 50 %(recruits,military schools,etc),these units had a strength of 5000 men.The ammunition situation was that catastrophic that the Spanish army could fight only a few days,most of the officers were absent from the barracks: to have a decent living,they had a second (civilian) job.

    Whatever,Spain was destroyed by the civil war,every day,a new civil war could start .Thus,Spain as a military aid for Germany is ridiculous .Spain had even not one operational batallion.

    For Turkey:the situation is even worse:it was a mediaval country,with an army of 194000 men,combat units would be 100000.But,as Spain,Turkey was not able to send even one batallion to the border(here:with the SU):the Turkish railways were practically inexistent.

    Both armies were unable to operate outside theur country .
     
  18. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    As there was no chance at all for the Germans to beat the British in Egypt,it is only a waste of time .
     
  19. belasar

    belasar Court Jester

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    1) As LJAd points out these would be peacetime Administrative Units, not actual combat divisions of 12-15,000 men under arms.

    2) For the 1941 invasion of Russia, Germany was still giving its own newly formed Infantry Divisions large stocks of captured Polish, Czech, Belgian, Dutch and French equipment such as rifles, machine guns, trucks and light artillery. This would make it somewhat difficult to re-equip another 20 to 30 (Turkish/Spanish) allied divisions for Barbarossa 1942.

    3) I believe you have mis-understood the meaning of a "Static" Division. Static or Garrison Divisions are not intended to be moved or used as shock (attack) troops. Generally they lack the weapons to do more than fight from fixed, prepared positions in a purely defensive role.

    4) Once again you are discounting the Soviet Union. In addition to the T-34/KV-1 tanks, Russia had another 19,000 other tanks roughly equal or superior to the type you suggest giving to the Spanish/Turkish forces. The same qualitative state holds trie for tanks of Italian design.

    5) During 1941 Germany produced 1,673 Pzkw III's (139 per month) and 467 Pzkw IV's (39 p/m). In 1942 Pzkw III's dropped to about 100 per month, while Mk. IV's increased to about 80 per month. If Germany removes from its own divisions the older tanks, then they must be made up with new production, as well as replacing combat losses in North Africa before they will ever see better tanks given to her allies.

    6) If the Afrika Korps/Italian Armour are in southern Russia, who is left to counter British armour from Iraq or landing from the Red Sea?

     
  20. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    Would you say there are in par with Romanian Divisions then?

    Its strategic location is the most important thing as I said, in military terms it would be limited to bodies available to storm Leningrad.

    More ignorance.
    The Turkish railways were quite adequate.


    Apart from both countries did.
    Turkey several times from world war 1 onwards and Spain in North Africa.
     

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