German Bunker with Armored Turret

Hey guys,

Is the 21st Panzer Division missing from the OOB, or am I just not seeing it?

Duckbill

 

yes it should be included, plus the 17th W-SS pz Gren. did not have an artillery rgt but a battalion it was in case the absorption of the Korps it was under as a possibility. It's Panzerjäger Abt. was suppose to have the latest Stug IV's on hand plus towed 7.5cm's

 

Thanks Erich. I seem to remember the 21st Panzer was operating with the 25th Panzer Grenadiers, or elements thereof, to the west-northwest of Metz. For some reason I thought the 47th VG Division was there too, but after a little searching realized it was in the Cologne area before transfering to Army Group G.

Have also sent you a belated salute for your part in the OOB Terry posted, and for letting me know my memory was not completely shot about the 21st Panzer.

Duckbill

 

I didn't include it as it was not involved in the Metz fighting itself. While in the area it had no impact on the outcome of the Metz fighting. It was a bit further south. So, that is why it doesn't show up on the OOB.

 

OK, I got it now. The 21st Panzer Division - 38th SS PG Regiment counter-attack against the 5th Infantry Division bridgehead over the Nied River on the night of 13 November was located 4-5 miles south of Metz.

The difference is that I've been treating the German units which were engaged against the American envelopments of Metz, as taking part in the overall Battle for Metz. If I now understand correctly, your OOB consists only of those units that took part in the fighting in Metz and the immediate vicinity.

Duckbill

 

this is actually pretty tough to put a complete OOB of the German forces at hand, some fought within Metz and then some removing themselves however done to fight within other smaller fortress cities, NCO prep school comes to mind 2 other W-SS units of very small calibre came into play, so-called Heer fortress battalions were formulated for each of the fortress areas which to put in mildly could be called all part of the Metz scenario / Lorraine Campaign

this is all very confusing

 

Agreed. Just as soon as I think I have an OOB completed, I come across a unit I missed. This difficulty applies to both sides in my experience, although I undoubtedly have more trouble with the German forces than the American.

This being said, I believe it is important to identify as many of the units that participated in any given campaign, battle, engagement before drawing any hard and fast conclusions about doctrine, tactics, weapons and so on.

The other problem is scope. At what point do you draw the line between the units that participated in a battle like Metz, and those that did not.
For example, during the 21st Panzer Divisions actions along the Neid the 17th SS was on its right flanks, with units of the 11th Panzer on its left. The line of the 17th SS extended to the immediate vicinity of Metz while the 21st was 4-5 miles south of the city. Both fought defensive actions and launched counterattacks to try and stop the American units involved in the southern envelopment of the city. So, the problem remains -- which units should be included in the OOB, and which left out?

I think all military historians have to answer this question for themselves, and the way they handle it affects the manner in which they address the battle. I know this is simple stuff to some of the posters here, and I am just thinking out loud so to speak.

Duckbill