German Normandy Campaign 'heroes'

What did the Germans have to recover a Tiger?Everything I've read said "it takes a Tiger to move a Tiger".On the American side I've read that if the tank burned,it was a loss.If hit in the turret sprocket,it was a loss.Almost anything else could be patched up and sent back out. This from the book "Death Traps".

 

One of the German heavy half-tracks could tow a Tiger. Cant remember the number! will find out and post it!

 

Red is correct as there was a sepcial German recovery vehicle bu also to a zug Tiger could also retrieve in the heat of battle in that way both turrets could be used if the one itme was not severly damaged. many times German tanks left were blown by the crews, the result of blown track or simply running out of fuel.

There is unforunately still too many lost records(German)of 1944 through 1945 that are just plain gone so we will never know just what 'proof' of total claims can be justified.

E ~

 

OK, so why stop the attack if they still got 300-400 tanks in good order to attack? Makes no sense to me or is there an explanation for this?

 

Quote:

"OK, so why stop the attack if they still got 300-400 tanks in good order to attack? Makes no sense to me or is there an explanation for this?"

There is endless debate about the aims of Goodwood. Was it a breakthrough attempt or just a writing down attack for the German Armour?
Main point is the actual tank losses were replaced very quickly and the crew casualties, whilst regratable, were not very heavy.
Why people always say these offensives were failures is puzzling in that, at the end of the day, they destroyed the German Army and broke out of the bocage.

 

Goodwood didnt breakout... and it wasn't in Bocage country.

The 'it was a feint to whittle down the panzers' arguement comes from Montys memoirs...

The reason people say they failed is that they failed to reach the stated objectives. Yes they did cause losses to the Germans, but do you believe the only objective of Goodwood was to destroy some panzers???

 

I think you mean that the US troops broke out first? And like said on that previous thread putting 1/3 of the allied tank army into action does not sound like a defensive action or maybe that is Monty´s defensive action?

The allied were in need of a harbor to get the supplies in good numbers and to get into real beating of the German army. Staying in Normandy was not going to do that.

If the tanks were not taking much damage I´ll never undertand what the talk of the 5 German panzer divisions was by Monty as they were no good then? One would expect them to be a bit better than that?

 

Red just going back through the excellent reading on these posts. The US forces did not run into such heavy W-SS Panzer forces that the British did. From what I gather only the 2nd W-SS which seem to take forever to come up from southern France and the weak 17th W-SS Pz Grenadier Division in which their so-called armor........Stug Abteilung was hampered by air attacks and thumped pretty hard before it could ever get into action. The two divisions along with the Fallshirm seemed to have been the brunt of the German forces able to stall the US forces although stall is most probably not a good word to use.

E ~

 

I do remember that Panzer Lehr was sent to face the US forces as well...

http://www.normandiememoire.com/NM60Anglais/2_histo4/histo4_p07_gb.htm

 

As I say everyone has their own opinion of Goodwood. Try this one:


GOODWOOD was the final piece in the positional jigsaw, and when the Americans launched their breakout, Operation COBRA, on 25 July, they were confronted by just one and a half panzer divisions, about 100 tanks, while six and a half panzer divisions and several independent battalions of Tiger Tanks, about 600 tanks, still faced the British in the east (map 18). Both 1st and 12th SS Panzer Divisions which had been withdrawn from the line in early July for offensive action against the Americans, were now back in the front line side by side directly confronting the Second British Army south and south-east of Caen. If GOODWOOD did not significantly 'write down' German tank numbers, it certainly pinned them down. It is interesting to speculate on what might have happened if they had been available to oppose Operation COBRA, possibly by driving into the flank of the advance, as was tried later, but too late, in the Mortam offensive Furthermore 2nd and 116th Panzer Divisions, which were just arriving in Normandy were also thrown into the Caen battleground. If GOODWOOD did not significantly 'write down' German tank numbers, it certainly pinned them down at a vital moment. In counting the cost of British tank losses it is worth remembering that many of the tanks knocked out during GOODWOOD were quickly repaired and that the 500 spares, already held in in-theatre stores, more than compensated for losses. Within a few days all three armoured divisions were up to fighting strength and in action again. Seen at the operational level, therefore GOODWOOD must be rated a clear, if costly success.

 

Kai I do believe that Pz Lehr was almost wiped out by air attacks so did not really constitute a formidable tank force agasint the Allies. The Cobra defecne of the 1st and 12th was short lived as 2nd ? W-SS and the 17th was to be the main drive. Pretty stupid as these two units had been expended during the previous weeks.

two cents

E ~

 

You are correct Erich... The bulk of German armour faced the British.

Das Reich had only six tanks left by 28th August...

17th SS was certainly not well equipped or staffed. On the 1st June it had only 60% of its Officers and was short of vehicles. The Divisions supply services lacked any transport! It was also, according to some sources, without PAnzerfausts till a small quantity arrived in July. It could only field 42 Stugs and also lacked the command vehicles which were not delivered till 12th August! By the 15th June they had 24 Stugs operational, 13 in repair, rest destroyed... On the 23rd of July the unit was reported as follows:

two weak battalions and five abgekampfte (combat ineffective) battalions.

ten heavy anti-tank guns

ten Stug III

Five light artillery batteries (the heavy batteries were with Panzer Lehr)

Mobility = 30%

Combat value rating - IV


The division suffered around 8,000 casualties in Normandy.

Panzer Lehr was moved to face US troops and first went into action against them on 11th July. The Division was placed west and North west of St. Lo.

 

Going back to those 'Goodwood' tank losses, this from 'Normandy To The Rhine - Operations Of Eighth Corps ' by Lt-Col G S Jackson ( London, 1948 ) discussing the first day : -

'It had proved a hard and exhausting experience, particularly for II Armoured Division, for when the tank casualties came to be reckoned, the full severity of the struggle could be appreciated since it was found to have suffered a loss of no less than 126 tanks of all types, practically half its fighting strength, whilst Guards Armoured Division had also had over 60 knocked out. Many of these, it is true, were successfully recovered and in action again on the morrow, and it was heartening to know that casualties in men had been relatively light' ( p.102 ).

 

Must say the different calculations are very far apart from each other. But I´m truly surprised to think that German 88´s would not make more than some 40 total losses in the overall battle if you had some 400-500 tanks to aim at....

And as I remember I´d like to add of the Russian frontier that Red Army had some 20,000 of all kinds of tanks to start with on 22nd June 1941 and almost all of them had been wiped out by Dec 1941 so that´s quite alot of rings to add to yoru barrel ( or your plane´s hull ). As well the Germans were left with some 500 pz´s altogether by 1941 Dec so big losses for them as well!!

 

July 18/ Good Wood . Qoute; by nightfall the Leibstanarte were loking out on a tank graveyard. At least 160 of the 29th Brigade's 200 tanks were smouldering hulks.The Fife and Forfars and 3 RTR each lost more than 60 tanks against 21st Panzer Div. The lack of German infantry support meant they were unable to mop up the "hundreds of Brit tank crews wandering around their destroyed vehicles". The Brits received replacement tanks during the night and were ready to attack again 19 July. From the book "Waffen-SS Panzer Battles in the West 1944-1945". Also, after the previous nights rain had turned the battlefield into a quagmire Monty called off Good Wood[July 21].Monty lost 413 tanks and 6100 casualties. Germans had less than 75 assault guns and tanks hit,most of these were later repaired. I don't know how accurate those numbers are though.

 

For June/July/August 1944 total British tank losses were 1211. So we have German figures for Goodwood saying a months loss in 3 days? Hmmm....

 

MKenny can you post your sources with your figures please.

Just helps to gauge from where the differing sources originate.

 

It is all in Zetterling's Normandy book (chapter 6)
WO 165/136

June 146
July 231
Aug 834 (This figure is thought to include all those missed from the previous 2 months)
Perhaps this thread is better.

http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11051&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

If you just ignore the poster 'Darrin' (he is completely out of his depth)the rest is quite interesting.

 

Thanks Mkenny, thought it maybe zetterling.

Just gonna have alook at feldgrau... If I can remember my log-in...

 

Interesting...

Monty recalls his early press conference for Goodwood in his memoirs and confesses that he was too victorious....

The first time for him to do so?