German superiority, myth or fact?

I seem to remember reading that the Japanese used a helicopter for ASW work late in the war. Not sure if it predates the German usage or not.

 

Thats new to me lwd. Do you have any sources for me, please?

 

I remember reading somewhere recently that Hitler in the late 30s wanted to build up the German army even faster. The generals told him that while they could train more soldiers faster they couldn't train the NCO's and juinior officers required any faster and that they were critical for a well run army. Hitler accepted their judgement on this.

 

While the German design may have been technologically "superior" it resulted in an engine with a horrible reliability.

Was the Me-262 the first practical jet fighter? Given it's reliablity rate the allies would certainly never have accepted it as ready for operational use and the Meteor was actually in operational (in squadron usage) prior to the Me-262.

Given that the engine required overhaul in less than 30 hours evne near the end of the war in an Me-262 and that engine failures were common it's not at all clear just how many Me-262's the Germans could keep operational even if they mass produced the planes.

 

From what I've read the V-3 was a mulit chambered gun for long range bombarment and even that wasn't official.

Or not. Remember the US and British were almost completely motorized while the Germans were still using horses in great numbers.

 

lwd, sorry i´m confused with the numbers. I meant the "Amerika-Rakete" the A9/A10 Projcet! Sorry for that!

 

This is what you're probably thinking of the Kayaba Ka-1. Maiden flight 26 May 1941.

 

the only true "choppers" produced were the Russian emigre Sikorsky's product for the US, and two for the Germans (FW and Heinkel?). The rest were really "gyroplanes", like the Japanese unit pictured here. They were just upgrades of the long-standing Spanish design from the inter-war years, non-powered rotary wings driven by forward momentum provided by the piston prop engine in the front.

There were also "towed" gyros for use on U-boats as spotters, but they don't really count. Or they shouldn't. I was incorrect, there were four counting the auto-gyros, and towed rotary wing "kites". Or at least that is what is listed here for the Luftwaffe.

Goto:

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/helicopters.html

 

Oh and BTW, the Sikorsky R-4, R-5, and R-6 TRUE helicopters were the most successful of the WW2 period as evidenced by their design's continued use in civilian life.

 

I think this might be a bit "off the mark" since both the Brits and the Americans had dropped the axial flow design when it proved to be less worthwhile than the centrifugal flow design. Even von Ohain had stayed with the centrifugal flow engine design, but couldn't get the thrust per pound ratio up to snuff. His latest centrifugal engines were pretty good, just not up to the Wagner axial flow in thrust per pound of engine weight.

Like the "Beryl" in Britain, as far back as 1939, Metropolitan-Vickers, a Manchester firm that specialized in steam turbines, had been working on what would become the first British axial-flow turbojet engine, but they stopped the R&D since the Whittle centrifugal design was adopted as the "way to go" for reliability.


In America the development of the L-1000 began in 1940. It was projected to power Lockheed's L-133 project fighter, the design was of an advanced axial-flow type engine, but it too was abandoned in response to the very reliable Whittle centrifugal type, the designer did however have a "leg up" when he designed the P-80 Shooting Star.

 

There were already helicopters BEFORE WWII:see "the 39 steps" from Hitchcock .

 

My assumption (only an assumption,because difficult to prove/compare) is that Germany was weaker in WWII than in WWI :in june 1940,Britain was alone,but Germany was without possibilities to force Britain to give up :it had no surface fleet,only a few UBoats .
While in 1914,after the defeat of the Marne,Germany was attacked immediately and continuously by Britain,France and Russia .it sustained these attacks,Russia was eliminated and in the spring of 1918,Germany was able to launch a dangerous attack in the west .
And,in WWII,after the defeat of France ....it was over :Germany failed in the Battle of Britain/the Blitz,in the Battle of the Atlantic,in North Africa,against the SU .Why ? It was not the fault of the German soldier:he was fighting as good in WWI as in WWII,is was not the fault of Hitler or an other black sheep .Essentially,it was because Germany was to weak .
And,why was it to weak ? Because of the Treaty of Versailles that forced Germany to disarm :the RW was in 1933 not even strong enough to maintain law and order:no submarines,no surface fleet,no aircraft,no tanks,no artillery,no reserves,no armaments industry ,no reserve officers/nco's,(there was no time to train 100000 reserve officers)etc...
While in august 1940,the German army was quantitatively superior in the west,it was not in may 1940:less divisions,aircraft,tanks,artillery .
Notwithstanding the enormous amount of money that was spent for the rearmament,the results were meagre inseptember 1939:
Munition was sufficient for 15 days of fighting,there were 25 15 cm guns,there were 2300 Pz I and II,and 550 Pz II,IV and Pz (t),the 3.7 flak :number 63.......

 

Oh PULEEZE! that was an auto-gyro which had been around for about ten years when the film was made. That film is the first time one (an auto-gyro), was featured in a film which was for public consumption, but it certainly wasn't a helicopter in any sense of the term. It was an AUTO-GYRO (giro) which had been around since the Spaniard (forget this name) had patented the dang thing in the twenties. America had its version, the KD-1 I believe by that time, as did the Spanish, the French, the Japanese, the Germans and everybody else under the sun who were into aviation inovations.

 

Another myth. If this was real, then Germans would have run out of ammo in the middle of the Polish campaign...

In Poland (1 month) Germans expended as much ammo as later in France (1,5 month) and it was still only ca. 10% - 15% of stockpiles (however, in case of some types of ammo it was more and in case of some other - less; but about 10% - 15% of artillery ammo was used in Poland, and artillery ammo is most important).

And ammo usage in Poland was high (as I wrote - it was as high as in France 1940 and it was ca. 77% of average monthly usage on the Eastern Front in 1941 - 1944).

On 1 September 1939 Germans had sufficient ammo stockpiles for good few / several months of intensive war operations.

The only exception being stockpiles of bombs (in Poland they used 1/3 of their bombs - see my previous post in this thread). But it seems that German expenditure of air bombs in Poland was exceptionally high (for example Soviet Air Force expended much less bombs on average per month during almost entire war - until the end of 1944).

Check my posts in this thread:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=144492&p=1584465&hilit=months#p1584465

What, what, what - 25 ???

There were at least 2434 heavy howitzers 15cm type 18 and 410 infantry guns 15cm before WW2, in the Summer of 1939.*

This doesn't yet include a number of 15cm Kanone types 16 and 18 (only Haubitze 15cm type 18 and schwere IG 15cm).

*Source: Hans Hoehn, "Feuerkraft der Aggressoren...", Berlin 1961.

25 could be the number of 15cm Kanone type 18, soon before WW2 in 1939:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_cm_Kanone_18

But only 101 such Kanones were built in total (in period 1938 - 1943), so it is no surprise that in 1939 there were 25 of them.

The number of older 15cm Kanone 16 must have been bigger in 1939:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_cm_Kanone_16

Number of Flak guns on 01.07.1939 (1 July 1939) was:

2cm - 5230
3,7cm - 920 (not 63 !!! - 63 is only what "stupid" German wikipedia says )
8,8cm - 2335
10,5cm - 34

Total Flak (Anti-Aircraft) guns: 8519

Number of Anti aircraft spotlights (6cm and 15cm) was 2475.

Units of Flak artillery numbered 107,000 soldiers in July of 1939 (before full mobilization).

Source:

Horst Koch, "Flak. Die geschichte der deutschen Flakartillerie 1935 - 1945".

Martin Bryja, "German artillery 1933 - 1945", says that yet in 1935 German AA artillery numbered 9,000 guns (of which 30% 8,8cm guns) & 3,000 spotlights.

The same Bryja mentions that in 1939 Germans had yet over 10,000 AA guns. But his numbers seem to be less detailed than those of Horst Koch.

 

Again wikipedia is wrong. There were slightly more of each of these types.

The total number of German tanks (if I remember correctly) in late August 1939 was around 3500.*

Against Poland alone they sent ca. 2700. The remaining ca. 800 remained in spare units (Ersatz-Kompanies) and training units.

Because the SU had more of everything than Germany - this was achieved also thanks to support of US and GB (Lend-Lease).

And Germany had to scatter its resources over several fronts. If it could concentrate 100% resources against SU, and if there was no Lend-Lease, then who knows...

This doesn't mean that Germany was weak. It was not weaker than in 1914 (compared to other countries). And that's why WW1 ended just like WW2.

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*Oh - I found it - the number of tanks in inventory of the Wehrmacht on 31.08.1939 was most probably (in brackets number sent against Poland):

German:

Pz.Kpfw. I - 1445 (973)
Pz.Kpfw. II - 1228 (1130)
Pz.Kpfw. III - 106 (90)
Pz.Kpfw. IV - 216 (201)
Pz.Bef.Wg. - 215 (134) - this number 215 includes ca. 30 / 33 - 38 large Pz.Bef.Wg.III (based on Panzer III tank - Sd.Kfz.266, 267, 268)

Czechoslovakian in German service:

Pz.Kpfw. 35(t) - 208 (120)*
Pz.Kpfw. 38(t) - 78 (57)*

Total: 3496 (2705)

*In fact the number of captured (by Germans) Czech tanks (35 & 38) was even bigger. But probably not all were in the inventory of the Wehrmacht.**

** For example number of captured Pz-35(t) was sth. like 244. Also number of Pz-38(t) produced until 31.08.1939 must have been bigger than 78.

According to that German wikipedia article (maybe it is "accidentally" right in this case) the number of Pz-38(t) tanks was 122.

 

Don´t trust Wikipedia in all cases. They are often wrong. We dealed at an other forum with them but they are so arrogant that they won´t accept any help!

 

AFAIK there were 59 Pz 38(t) (possibly called something else as the 38(t) designation possibly dates from 1940) in 3rd Leichte Division in Poland, so the 75 total doesn't look that far off, by May 1940 there were enugh to equip two Panzer divisions (7 and 8) and IIRC Pz Abt. 40 in Norway had some too.

For the Pz 35(t) it's harder, total production was higher than 208, one source gives 3 batches for Czech army 160+103+35 and 219 build after the occupaton for Gerrmany, but the slovak forces possibly retained some as they did have them in Barbarossa and if you consider the reputation for bad reliability the initial batch had there could have been some write offs.
This is not counting exports for Hungary, Rumania etc that AFAIK were separate production runs.

Those 3,500 figure (with less than 2000 gun tanks) still compares unfavourably with Allied available tank strength, so cannot explain the early victories.

 

The figures I have given are from Wiki :Aufrustung der Wehrmacht :stustand der Wehrmacht sptember 1939,with as source :
MGFAas Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg :Tome V/1art IIIie Mobilmachung der Wehrmacht P 554 (It is mentioned that differences with other sources are possible).Whatever,MGFA is the official source with access to the Geman archives .
Other sources given by the article :
W.Deist ie Aufrustung der Wehrmacht
B.Kroener ie personellen Ressourcen des Dritten Reiches .
And,I checked again :
2 cm Flak 30 :895
3.7 cm Flak :63
3.7 cm Pak :10560
Panzerbuchsen (anti tank rifles) :62
10 cm gun 18 :400
15 cm gun 18 :25
very heavy artillery :47
infantry ammunition :6.665.459.000
artillery ammunition : 29.363.000
Pz and Pak ammunition :35.793.000

 

The following must be a typo (or M.Brya was gasing):
Following M.Brya (German Artillery 1933-1945) in 1935,the German AAArtillery numbered 9000 guns of which 30 % (=2700 ) 8.8 cm guns .
That would mean that berween 33-35 the Germans produced 2700 8.8cm guns =1350 per year and,before 1935,the German armaments production was almost nihil,while,following the German artillery and ammunition production at Sturmvogel,the 8.8 cm gun production was :
1939 :183
1940:1130
1941:1998
1942:3052
1943:4712
1944:6482
1845:738
These figures include army and air force production .

 

Wiki is usually not a reliable source of information. And even if they quote sources, it is sometimes "just for fun".

62 is only the number of Panzerbuchsen 39. Add to this several hundreds (at least) of Panzerbuchsen 38.

Regarding 3,7cm Pak - Hans Hoehn ("Feuerkraft der Aggressoren...") gives similar - slightly higher - number: 11200.

1) - these numbers are probably faaaar too small. I believe numbers given by Horst Koch - they are from official document.

2) - and where are 8,8cm Flak guns, why they are not listed at all by Wiki?

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As for ammunition stockpiles - I have this data ("Stockpiles A" is from one source, "B" from another):

Axis History Forum • View topic - The Saar Offensive??

It compares very favourably with Polish available tank strength. These (3,500) are German tank strength figures on 01.09.1939.

If we want too compare with Allied tank strength then we have to get figures for German tank strength on 10.05.1940.

I agree. But still Horst Koch gives 8,500 Flak guns (all types) for 1939.

Yeah, you are right. The total production of Pz-38(t) until the war was probably 81 - but only 78 were in the inventory on 01.09.1939.