German tanks in Japanese service

I'm not sure I would call the Panther "outdated" even by the end of the war. Now there were some problems with the design but that's not the same as being outdated. Indeed I'm not sure I can point to a tank that was clearly supperior to the Panther especially for the Germans.

 

Which is quite a leap from "whether they got their money back, then yes they did. The official transaction never took place".

So I'll disregard this firmly stated nugget, which is absolutely fine with me, but the Devil lies in the details when looking at this marginally esoteric stuff. I applaud more coverage of somewhat neglected areas, but the Internet has a tendency to inflate little things like that to accepted truths - hence the nit-picking.

As for 'area of preference', the thread title is 'German tanks in Japanese Service', and these putative exports were the subject of post #1, so I feel such queries lie well within that remit, given that the bulk of foreign machines which made it to Japan were a smattering of French vehicles, a Whippet or three, and the usual British interwar designs, Vickers etc. that were exported and so influential almost everywhere. Not so many German Tanks in Japanese service really.

Now refreshing myself on the Panther order, about which there is even sketchier info.

 

Interesting, I hope Im understanding correctly that Japan got the license for those undelivered tanks. So they probably got the know how to build similar afv.
Great info. Thank you AE Sun
Gato

 

No need to clarify, as that was what I thought you meant.

This statement is objectionable on several levels. The first two foremost being, that the early Tiger and Panthers were not "outdated" German tanks, and that the Japanese "paper projects" did not "outclass" them. In 1943, the Tiger and Panther had both just, basically entered full scale production, and were still new designs, and as all new designs do, had to experience their teething problems. The Japanese "paper project" tanks were just that...paper. Nothing had yet been completed, tested, or trialed. So, it is impossible to state that the German finished Tiger and Panther were outclassed by a Japanese "paper" tank(a tank whose qualities and capabilities are completely unknown quantity). Further, there is nothing I have seen to show that the Japanese "paper project" "outclassed" the Panther and Tiger. The only thing remotely "innovative" would be the autoloader, but then again, Germany, Britain, the United States, and the Soviet Union were all tinkering with autolaoders in tank gun caliber.

About the only thing I can say, is that the Japanese heavy industry would be unable to reproduce either the Tiger or Panther, and therefore, they had to find their own path for a medium tank design.

 

Gaines, have tried to message you several times, says you are not able to recieve messages.

Have enjoyed all of Ae's bits.
Just wanted to ensure who Ae really is. A little bird told me.
Can't stand peeps who pretend to be what they are not.
If you are a young, hot, smart university student- my apology for asking you to take the robot test.

Japanese tanks, in my opinion were not good jungle fighters. They lacked weight that would allow them to push through jungle. Or crush log pillboxes.
The US's Ontos was useful in Vietnam, had 5 recoiless 106mm, they loved the firepower and mobility, but couldn't crush pillboxes like the sherman and M90.

 

The initial mention of the Japanese/German purchase (19/05/43) included a request for microfilm construction blueprints of Panther and Tiger to Japan.
It doesn't seem to be clear that these blueprints were definitely sent, but as the request for a physical tank came in September that year, it might be reasonable to assume that someone was looking at plans for a while and wanted an example to inspect alongside. That is an assumption based on my limited info though.

As to licensing/copyright issues. These seem to have been a prime focus of German discussions of the deal. Again though, I've got rather limited stuff on the specifics.

 

The JGSDF had their own recoilless rifle vehicle.

 

Based on the Ontos.

 

I dunno Poppy, all the Ontos I have seen had 6 106s.

And you had to get outside the armored box to reload.

But, hey, it was better than the Army's M-56

 

The Type60 wasnt based off the American Ontus, actually. The Type60 entered its prototype staging the year the Ontus went into service.

 

Interesting. Looking it up.
The type 60 "fulfills a role similar to the M50 Ontos, and the French Light Fighting Unit...all 3 were developed in the 50's..."
from Modern Tanks And Fighting vehicles edited by Ray Bonds, ARCO books.
Betting a lot of the parts are similar to the Ontos.
Looking for some stuff have on the Ontos, will post if find.

 

Yes, I have no knowledge. Dyslexic possibly. Indeed 6 barrels. Sticky fingers, methinks.
Still looking for info on the Ontos. It's here somewhere.

 

About the only thing similar between the two is the M40RRs. Other than that different chassis, suspension, tracks, powerplant, etc.

 

That Recoilless mucking about was an interesting fashion of the time.
There seemed to be a hope that RR could be a panacea, perhaps most... ermm... 'adventurously'... tested by the French:




No panacea, for assorted reasons, maybe Sheridan & it's 'tube' the nadir. Though the consideration still rumbles on.

 

Would you be so kind as to post the stats- so I can sit down now, looked through 6 books already.
doh. Have to find it now...Add obsessive compulsive to my list.

 

Thanks, have that pic somewhere too ViP...now going to have to look for that. never ends here.

 

The Ontos was an interesting vehicle and well liked. The 106's had .50 cal spotting rifles attached. They fired single shot tracer rounds and adjusted until it hit the target. At that point they could fire one up to all 6 106's and the rounds should strike where the .50 cal struck. The rifles were also dismountable and could be fired from a ground mounting. During the Hue City fighting they teamed them up with M48's into very effective hunter/killer teams. The small size, maneuverability and quickness of the Ontos made it hard to hit. First time I ever saw a real one was when attending Amphibious Warfare School at Little Creek, VA. They had one on display there and they are really quite small.

For my man Poppy:

Ontos Hue City

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0t-0l0Zv0I

This one has several shots of Ontos' around the 8 min mark. Lots of M-48 shots. Good synopsis of the battle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kix6IgGakKk

 

Just found this one too Poppy. You'll like it. Even mentions one of the things being debated in the thread, how a light armored vehicle can traverse rice paddies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxRzZMuvrg8

 

Timely, in that the Hue battle took place in February. We shouldn't forget...Thanks for that.
Great video of the Ontos in the first vid. Makes an appearance at about the 8 min mark in 2nd vid.

 

Those are some cool Ontos videos USMCPrice.