Governments

IMO - no.

 

I am afraid you are right. The central power is too strong. They can be put into army uniforms from one day to the other and made to march on us.
For example. Not because "I (don´t) like Chinese" but because their middle class is still too thin and fragile vs. the power of the state.

 

Izaak Stern wrote:

That plus the fact that most Asian cultures tend to encourage self sacrifice of the individual for the "good" of the collective. The idea of strong individualism is a western concept, not originated by but exemplified by American values. I fear it is being eroded however and one day we will wake up to find ourselves living in the kind of Euro-socialist "utopia" that is presently infecting western European society (hey, just my opinion )

 

It should also be remembered that human life tends to be very cheap in China, although that may be said of several other nations as well.

 

Human life is always priceless, no, valueless for communists.
I don´t know. I just hope all these old guys get bribed so solid that the´ll forget about their primus motor.

Yea, confucianism. They actually look a little like ants, don´t they? Not only because o fthe numbers involved.

Anyways, there is more of them and less of us all the time. That is something to think about. I would not be so afraid of the Hindus, provided the borders are safe. But the yellow people are very smart. Large scale IQ tests prove that an average east asian is several points above an average caucasian. Read "The Bell Curve" of Murray and Herrnstein. Look what´s going on in US campuses. They are more yellow than white. I´ve seen them myself outperform most of my colleagues at my medical school. And - YES - they stick together. Funny. The same thing was usually being said about Jews. What´s going on with them? The largest Jewry of the world is in the US. They intermarry with goyim more and more. Within two generation there are no real Jews in the USA. You can´t say the same thing about east asians.

My gut feeling is that this is the race of the future. And many of them know it. Don´t be afraid of the Islamists. As soon as the oil is gone, they are going to get quiet again. No money no jihad. And good businessmen and producers - they are not.

A little bit too racistic entry, maybe. I hope Mr Moderator will forgive me this once.

 

If you don't make a habit of it...

I must generally agree on the facts you present. However.

There are always minorities that stick together and refuse to, or are unable to, blend in and intermarry with the original inhabitants of a country. This has many reasons and usually the problem dissolves after a generation or two and a genuine effort from both sides. In the Netherlands the non-integrating group is Moroccan Muslims at the moment, but it used to be Turkish Muslims, and before that, Indonesian Muslims.

The IQ and other test results achieved by Asians are largely due to the fact that they are often more industrious than Western peoples; studying longer and more intensively automatically generates a higher average. I doubt it has much to do with a structural advantage in intelligence, since throughout history they haven't been quite as outstanding in thought as they have been in physical achievement (works of wonder).

Western European society as I know it is overwhelmingly individualist, sometimes to the point of a glorification of unmarried life and lonely achievement. What you may hear from forum members here is nothing but a social-democratic political view which can exist, as European countries prove, even in an individualistic society. The Welfare state has been built up over here in the same era of the development of individualism, in fact.

 

Immigrants & society.
Yes, if they make an effort to integrate - and if the society lets them - there is rarely any problem (aside from the inevitable racism of the stoopid minority).

Problems arise when immigrants settle en mass in one area, almost forming a ghetto, and essentially re-create their home town there, refusing to integrate into the society they moved to. Obviously, this type of problem is also caused when immigrants are deliberately ghettoised by their host country...

Basically they then continue to live as if back in (insert country here), and continue to be 'different' and 'strange' to the inhabitants of their host country.
I do not advocate the abandonment of their ethnicity, or culture. Far from it. I just believe (and this is born out in practice) that unless (for example) Englishmen get to know Pakistanis on a personal level, rather than just as a group of foriegners who imported a neighbourhood of Islamabad to their town, then racism will inevitably prosper. On both sides.

 

You bet it will prosper. The peoples´ are just too different. Both physically and psycho-socio-traditio-mentally. Two worlds.
The only reason of their being in Britain, Germany, Denmark, Sweden, France - is money. Let´s face it.

It took 2000 ys to get Jews relatively well integrated (still trying to stick together the suckers).
Sorry, Mr Admin, it won´t repeat itself. I don´t want where you sent KBO, heeeelp!

You said that stuuupid minority is racist. My own impression from Europe is that people are often ashamed of their feelings. And the feelings are very similar and very genuine. I exclude intellectual elites who can afford tolerance and "enjoy the multietnic bouquet". The man in the street is rather unhappy about all these murky faces with moustachios and their innumerable children, thanks to whom the noustachios get more moneý than a decent European worker, often does.
These feelings are still much taboo. It feels like being sort of anticommunist in one´s head in the middle of the red square in 1930.

I talk with a lot with different people wherever I go. Curiosity what´s in their heads. And I am pretty easy "socializer".
The immigrants, almost to a man dislike the host countries and their indigenious populations very much. It´s a real "reverse" racism. They despise the western ways, bad ethics, divorces etc. They have NO plans whatsoever to integrate. They actively prevent it. They want the money and that is all what they want of the host country. To be left alone.
It is always easier to me to talk to a Turkish taxi driver in Copenhagen or a Pakistani vegetable salesman in Hamburg or London, than it would be if I were form there. They´ll never tell it openly. They tell me because I look also kind of asian, decidedly not like a one from there (it´s also important not to say one is Jewish, of course).

So - the Walls are being built from both sides and I don´t know which side is more diligent. So much for the integration. Bon appetit.

 

Much truth in what you just wrote Izaak.

 

I have seen much the same (as Izaak) here. It is rather disconcerting to see a society which prides itself on welcoming immigrants, rejected by those same immigrants, who then try to use the institutions (primarily courts) of the host nation to impose their ways on the host nation!

 

Sadly, yes.

 

I was just thinking:
What the end result of this Clash of Civilizations on European soil could lead to???

My sad (temporary) conclusion is, that with the inevitable shrinking of Welfare, more and more immigrants will become poor, and, consequently - more prone to criminality and to Islamic fundamentalism and possibly - terror acts.
The answer of European societies will be slow but violent. First - growth (further growth) of nationalistic parties and movements (we have already seen battles/riots between such groups in Britain). There are going to come more.
The other answer will be more decisive and punitive judiciary (despite high costs of prisons): like the American "three times and you are out".
The numbers of "mustachioed" citizens behind the bars is going to grow.

There will certainly be attempts to send as much as possible "home" but by that time most "mustachioed" will be citizens of their "new fatherlands" and unremovable.

Still later - with sharp fall in birth rate of aboriginal Europeans and still very high rates of the "mustachios" - even politics can be endangered by strong Islamic vote. A consequence might be - an end of democracy in Europe and civil wars.

G_D FORBID! I am just thinking loud....

 

Much of the currently rising agression towards immigrants arises from the thought that the problem is new. However it is not, it is century-old and will always exist; the less we worry about it, the less of a problem it will be. Most of the facts of the matter are exaggerated or relative anyway.

 

It seems to be a minority view. :lol:

Yes, there have been population movements throughout centuries in Europe. But these were small numbers of people, usually culturally and/of racially close resembling the aborigins (exception: Jews - end result: Israel. exception: Gypsies: a VERY successful integration, right?)

What we are having now is a mass-scale experiment on living bodies of European societies. People form faraway parts of the world settling in Europe, in up to 99% of cases for economic reasons. Who was asking the peoples´involved about their idea about the wisdom of the experiment?

 

[/quote]

Well arguably, they are being asked at every election....

 

Yes, arguably....
And, strangely enough, it´s always the parties which are politically correct and pro-immigration that win. One wonders why there is such a dissonance between the private opinions of people (and opinion polls) and the official policies.
One can argue that in recent years most countries have made their immigration policies more stringent but the influx is still very substantial, apparently unstoppable.

 

In the Netherlands there has been a conservative and therefore immigrant-restrictive government for the last three years; I believe last year or the year before that was the first in a long time that saw more people emigrating from the country than immigrating. Now people are complaining about the Polish workers that have come here since Poland has been admitted to the EU, but we still can't deny the fact that much of our economy is run by the cheap labour they provide.

By the way, two elections ago a populist right-wing party managed to win 26 seats in parliament out of nowhere, partially because of their populist discrimination policies (Dutch parliament counts 150 seats - rising from 0 to 26 is almost unprecedented). The policies were only partially enacted, but since the leader of the populist party was assassinated in a sad piece of new Dutch history, the party pretty much imploded over its own bungling everything.

 

Yes, these populist parties are often rather weak intelectually, and even more - economically.

As to the Poles: they are coming in order to work, period. Usually with no plans to stay and suck the welfare, as opposed many or most "mustachios".

Am I wrong again or politically incorrect (incorrigible)? :roll:

 

I'd say just wrong.

The "mustachios" as you like to call them originally came here because there was a demand for labour which could not demographically be met without immigration. However, they proceeded to bring in their families later on, en masse. The problems arrive with their children and their children's children, who are used to sets of values different from our own while not being directly useful to society. People like to imagine that they are much worse than they are, however, especially when because of economic reasons they pack together in inner cities.

 

OK, I am wrong. I apologize for my incorrectness.

So, let´s say, it was selfishness and short-sightedness that made west European countries (under influence of business circles who don´t care about inner cities anyways) to invite the gastearbeidern.

But NOW the problem, no matter how good they are (and they are not bad - it was NOT what I was saying!) - the social problem is substantial in almost the whole western Europe. And growing. And nobody knows what to do humanistically about it.