Greif.

"Twenty-five Fw-200C-1s were delivered during the second half of 1940 to Kampfgeschwader 40, equipping I Gruppe at Trondheim in Norway and responsible for operations in the far North Atlantic and around the west of Ireland, and III Gruppe at Bordeaux-Merignac flying over the Bay of Biscay and far out into the central North Atlantic.

This handful of airplanes - the Condor never had more than 30 aircraft total operational at any one time between November 1940 and the end of 1943 - gave the British fits. Operating beyond the range restrictions of British aircraft, the convoys didn’t have air protection, while the anti-aircraft weapons carried by the escorts and the merchant ships were inadequate for defense against the Condor’s attacks."


276 Condors were built. 365.000 tons of shipping. This proves the theory that a small amount of bombers can do serious damage. Similiar amount of 290's or ME 264's could have done major damage to factories behind Urals.

" it was claimed that from June 1940 to February 1941 they sank 365,000 tons."

The total may be higher as this figure is only for early part of war.

 

The Ju 290 was built by Junkers at a rate of about 1 or 2 per month. The He 177 at a rate of about 1 per day or so at the most.

Messerschmitt likely could never have progressed beyond hand-made Me 264 bombers at a rate of one or two a month matching Junkers.


One should be careful here, production is largely down to allocation of raw materials & orders from above. Had the materials been made available, & higher ups pressed more for these bombers, production would no doubt have been higher. One also has to figure in the considerable de-bug work done on 177 which would slow down production.

 

I fail to see the relevance. Once you sink a ship it stays sunk, factories can rebuilt and kept on operation after bombing. How do you explain the fact that even under the massive hammering from the 8th Air Force and Bomber Command, the German production kept increasing almost to the end of the war? Would the Soviets be unable to do the same?

How would it be different with the Soviets, with factories over the extreme range of a piffling amount of German bombers, with a lot of real estate behind them where they could retreat and be rebuilt if needed? Pinpricks on a far away target. As the article I presented elsewhere shows, the Germans were unable to bomb Baku, where oil production was centred. How could they bomb Tankograd?

As for this Fw 200 "Summer", it lasted until the Allies cam up with the early Armed Merchant Carriers, a Sea Hurricane on a catapult, and later decent Escort Carriers. Summer ended.

 

Not only factories, but railroads as well & it takes time to rebuild factories. Germans were hit hard in this regard.

& Germans were not 'unable' to bomb Baku, rather they chose not to in the hopes of saving much of it.

 

one of the biggest problems to think about was the connection between the Kriegsmarine and the Luftwaffe. It utterly failed was was ny to useless. Ju 290's of FAGr 5 were used as armed recee and only when the prime oppourtunity arose were they equipped with the Hs 292/HS 293 rocket -bombs. the Kondors filled the bill due to range but were slow and easily shot down. where the heck was the single engine proteective escorts ? there were none and as pointed out SEa Hurricanes and esepcially Beu's plus Mossies took these heavies out of the sky.

Air power could not stop Atlantic convoys but with an inept hierarchy and two distinct branches trying to claim singular glory the Atlantic was lost. So much for the co-operation/liason between the U-boot arm and the Luftwaffe.

 

& there are many examples of german production being reduced to ashes by allied 'pinprick' bombing, synthetic fuel production being one of many. Here's another.

http://www.trackpads.com/factsheets/showproduct.php/product/476/sort/2/cat/24/page/1

In February 1945 the allies bombed BMW's Stargard factory where the production motors were being built, destroying all except 250 experimental motors placed in other factories. The program was shelved for the more immediate needs of the collapsing German military.

& yes Brits developed effective means against Condors, but what would Russians put up against Big German bombers?

 

I hardly think that the example given is totally relevant.

The US and British bombing campaign only really became effective against targets when several hundred bombers struck them. By 1944 1000 aircraft raids were becoming almost commonplace. This is where a German campaign becomes almost irrelevant: The inability to mount more than a token number of bombers against a target. For the Germans a maximum effort in a bomber raid would be more than 100 aircraft participating. Such raids were rare after 1940 for the Luftwaffe; they simply lacked the strength.
In the East the Germans would still be forced to bomb at night. Daytime raids could, and most certainly would, be intercepted particularly if they began to pose a threat to Soviet production. The Germans lack anything even close to an effective long range fighter for escort. Bombing at night would of course severly reduce the effectiveness of such raids.
In the Condor's case, the plane itself is somewhat problematic. It had a weak fuselage and limited load capacity along with relatively low servicability due to it originally being a civil design pressed into much more strenious military service. On the whole, the Germans were better off concentrating on a few extant designs to maximize their available aircraft in service.

 

Luftwaffe did do daytime bombing missions is Russia, & Soviets had no high altitude fighters to intercept.

& Germans dispersed production to houses & such. Russian factories behind Urals would have not have same luxury.

 

TAG and Erich are correct about the Condor. It was an airliner forced into a military role it was not designed for. I have seen many photos of Condors with broken backs and broken landing gear because it was not built to carry such a load from the beginning. And as Erich said the German Navy and German Air Force had little to do with each other. If the Germans kept the Condor in production it would have been just as big a flop as the He-177.

Many therorys have been put forth on how effective bombers were on all sides during WWII. You can pick a theory to support anything you like and find lots of material to support that theory.

Hundreds of thousands of bombs were dropped in Viet Nam and it did not change the course of the war.

 

Yes, well familiar with the Condors limitations, still it performed well against convoys. Thread is more based on a reliable 4 engined bomber made in time for 42 ops against Urals. Greif prototype flew in 37. One would think that at least one good 4 engined bomber could've been put together in time & in decent numbers for 42 ops.

& theories are nice, but the raid that put out the German missile plant was a real event, & unlike what was forwarded above about mass bombings, it just doesn't follow logic that the allies would send hundreds of bombers to raid one factory. Therefore, it stands that pinpoint bombing of a factory can & was done effectively with small numbers of bombers on a raid.


http://forums.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/1521093534/p/1

would have been capable of strategically bombing factories deep withing Russia - it was nicknamed the Ural bomber- thus disrupting Soviet fuel, tank, and aircraft production. The Soviets would not have relished having to intercept 4 engined heavies flying at 20,000ft plus in their Mig 3s!

 

But the Allies did do exactly that. One example would be the the Focke Wulf factory built at Madgeburg that was bombed by roughly 800 B-17s in early 44 (I don't have the exact figures in front of me). The plant was literally flattened. Of note was the USAAF showed up a day before Göring was supposed to to dedicate the opening of the plant.

 

Yep, & they also did small scale bombing missions. The Dambusters being one, proving a small force can do a very serious job.

& here is the other Urals bomber, cancelled in 37.
http://www.ww2guide.com/germanb.shtml

Junkers 89 "Ural bomber"

Junkers Ju 89 "the Ural bomber"
Crew: nine
internal bombload: 16 100kg (220 lb) bombs
Engines: (V1) Four inverted V-12 1,075 hp Jumo 211A (V2) Four 960 hp DB 600AB
Empty Weight: 37,480lb (17000kg)
Loaded Weight: (V2) 50,266lb (22800kg)
Wingspan: 115 ft 8.5 in (35.25m)
Lenght: 86 ft 11.25 in (26.49m)
Height: 24 ft 11.25 in (7.60m)
Max Speed: 242 mph (390km/h) - no armament.
Max. Range: 1,242 miles (2000km)

Ju 89 (V1) first flew December 1936
Ju 89 (V2) early 1937

Program terminated April 29, 1937


And this...

Rowehl Geschwader
Top-secret Luftwaffe squadron that conducted high altitude photo-reconnaissance flights deep into Russia to gather military intelligence for Operation Barbarossa. It was set up by Lieutenant Colonel Rowehl in October 1940 by direct order of Hitler and was the forerunner of the U.S. U-2 flights of the 1960's. One group flew from Insterberg over the Baltic States using special Do 215's equipped with high-altitude engines. A second unit flew out of East Prussia and used HE111s while a third flew between Minsk and Kiev in Ju 88's and Ju 86's. All flew at between 33,000 and 39,000ft, enabling thern to photograph every Red Air Force base

 

If one day I decide to buy a pitbull or any other dog race that once it bites and sets its teeth it will never let go, I know what name I shall give it.

This guy is more obstinate than Gollum going after his Preciouss, jeez

 

My thoughts exactly. Let the Urals rest in peace.

 

Za, was that another poke? Stick to subject matter rather than the personal stuff is perhaps the better path for you to take Za.

Ural factories could've been attacked with decent 4 engined bombers no doubt. Live with it.

 

For sure, but if the Germans could or could not I don't know, all I know is they simply never did it. You live with it.

In case you haven't noticed this is not the What-If section where phantasy thrives. And even then...

 

Hey Chromeboomerang, would you be so kind as to let me in on what high altitude German bomber could not be shot down by the MIG-3 which has a ceiling of 39,370ft

 

Za, not fantasy,Plan Iron Hammer for example almost did happen. & insults are boring. & yes we know Germans didn't bomb Ural factories. Give us some real data instead of yawnful insults.

" in the spring of 1941 a few Luftwaffe experts had visited some Soviet airplane factories in the Urals and reported that a large-scale program was being executed."

If you haven't anything intelligent to add, go to a different thread.

& Slon, Mig 3's were mostly wiped out in early phases of Barbarossa in 41 rendering it irrelevant for 42 German high altitude bomber ops. Production stopped as it was considered a piece of sh-- & replaced witn Yaks & Laggs.

"The MiG-3 was one of the main fighters of the VVS when Operation Barbarossa went off. Although it had an excellent performance at high altitude, this was of no use for the fighters. Most air battles were fought at a low to medium altitude, in which the MiG-3 lacked maneuverability and performance.
Of the MiG-1 produced, most aircraft had succumbed during the couple of months in which it became operational and Operation Barbarossa. This was due to the high number of accidents caused by the viciously bad handling characteristics.
Nevertheless, it was the first really advanced and powerful fighter of the Soviets, and as such can claim it's place in the Hall of Fame. It was in front line duty for an extended time, even after productionhad already stopped. After that it was often used for training purposes, or defence of secondary low-risk installations and areas. It was most of the time outclassed by the German fighters (Messerschmitt Bf 109F series), but occasionally could claim great victories."

& here is it's armament. Not exactly bomber killer stuff.

1 × 0.50 inch Beresin UB fixed forwrad-firing in the upper nose, 300 rounds
2 × 0.30 inch ShKAS fixed forward-firing in the upper nose, 375 rounds each (later 750 rounds each)

[ 25. September 2006, 02:48 AM: Message edited by: chromeboomerang ]

 

Heck even in 44 there were still German bomber successes on eastern front. 47 fortresses destroyed on this one.

"There was, however, an occasional surprise to keep the Allies on their toes. In the pre-dawn hours of June 22, 1944, a massed formation of German bombers from four wings struck at the big Soviet air base at Poltava.The formations of Heinkel He-177s and He-111s destroyed 80 U.S. aircraft, including 47 out of Colonel Archie J. Old's force of 163 Fortresses, which had raided Ruhland (south of Berlin) the day before. The Americans had flown on to land at Poltava as part of an operation code-named "Frantic."

 

Yes but also awful misses...

http://www.thehistorychannel.co.uk/site/features/the_baby_blitz-1.php

The Luftwaffe designated the new series of attacks Operation ‘Steinbock’. For Steinbock, the Germans assembled 524 bombers, and the force included 46 examples of the new He 177 ‘Greif’ four-engined heavy bomber, raiding Britain for the first time.

Air raid casualties in Britain during the first five months of 1944 totalled 1,556 killed, with 2,916 seriously injured. During the five months of Operation Steinbock, the Luftwaffe lost about 330 bombers and crews. Thus, for every five people killed on the ground, the raiders lost one bomber and four trained crewmen killed or captured.