Guderian suggestion concerning Couland and the Ardennes

I do not believe the effects of the bomb were known at that time hence the appearance of ignorance or lack of consideration to troops during testing. I do not think it would have been used against Germany due to it's obvious state of collapse had the bomb been ready. I do not think the "white" factor would have been considered. Japan on the other hand was still dangerous and had plenty of fight behind it. One hundred thousand 'American' lives were on the line. That was the factor.

 

I think the main problem with this suggestion is troops.

Germany just did not have them, the Waffen SS, where by 1944, made up mostly of conscripts. By this time there was no hope of the units recieving the young, politicaly indoctrinated troops that made the SS so formidable and the old veterans where being killed by combat attrition.

Yes the Germans had excelent weaponry, equipment and personel but in such short supply to make any hope of victory useless, by 1944 they where relying on stocks of weponry that was earmarked for reserve and garrison units.

Germany's only hope was make peace after taking France and by not invading Russia.

 

Doing that will give the Soviet Union time to train they soldiers and officer, produce more tanks and better designs. Hitler was right to attack and taking the Balkans was a required thing, Yugoslavia was needed to for transport and to protect the flanks while Italian was in danger of losing to the Greeks and British.

I'm still studying but I *still* hold the "insane belief" that Germany was capable of victory in May 1944.

 

Why worry about Russia building up it's military capabilities? Europe was never a priority for Russia. If anything, china was a more tempting target for Stalin than Europe ever was.

 

Rifleman,

This goes a long way out of the thread but if Russia was not interested in Europe, then why did they make a pact with Germany in 1939 Aug, got half of Poland, occupied the Baltic countries in 1940, attacked Finland in 1939 ( Winter war ) andtook Bessarabia in 1940 ( to my knowledge not in the secret part of the pact in Aug 39 pact with Germans even..)? I think they were quite interested in their share of Europe.

 

Actually the Soviets were doing exactely that anyway, despite Hitler's attack, but in a much greater degree.

The Eastern part of Germany, entire Poland, the Czech & Slovaks, Hungarians, Romanians, Bulgarians, Albanians, Yugoslavians paid the price for Hitler's dream of Lebensraum.

Noone of us will ever stop studying, I guess. But it's considerably hard for me to argue against "believes".

Cheers,

 

Actually the Soviets were doing exactely that anyway, despite Hitler's attack, but in a much greater degree.

The Eastern part of Germany, entire Poland, the Czech & Slovaks, Hungarians, Romanians, Bulgarians, Albanians, Yugoslavians paid the price for Hitler's dream of Lebensraum.

No one of us will ever stop studying, I guess. But it's considerably hard for me to argue against "believes" rather than on facts or on the accepted current state of history scholarship.

Cheers,

[ 29. April 2003, 01:46 AM: Message edited by: AndyW ]

 

Actually I don´t understand Hitler´s way of thinking late 1944 and early 1945 at all. He must have seen things very differently to the real situation.

Maybe one of the things that had an effect was the fact that Hitler forbid removing divisions etc from the map as long as there was even "one man in the division" and as well kept on creating new divisions,as we know.

But how could Hitler think that the Russian attack to begin in early 1945 ( as well told by the German reconnaissance it was about to begin ) was named hoax by Hitler and his staff. I think Himmler was one of those, and he was about to command AG Vistula (?) and stop the Russians.
At the same time Hitler was sending troops to protect Budapest and effectively made it easier for the Russians to make a huge jump at Berlin from Warsaw.So the situation for Berlin very rapidly went chaotic.




From Warsaw Jan 11th to Oder Feb 2nd!

And all of this because Hitler himself moved the last armored troops cabaple of making an attack to Budapest wherabouts...

So actually it´s kinda interesting to think how much more could have been done to stop the Russians in Poland instead of trying to stop them at the gates of Berlin ?!!

 

1945 parts of timeline:

January

Friday 12th : Koniev launches a major winter offensive in southern Poland.

Sunday 14th : Zhukov attacks South of Warsaw from two Vistula bridgeheads, one of which holds 400,000 men and 1,700 tanks; Rokossovsky strikes to the North of Warsaw.

Wednesday 17th : Russians forces cross the Warthe and advance 100-miles on a 160-mile front forcing the Germans to evacuate Warsaw, which falls.

Sunday 21st : Tannenburg is taken by Red Army, but only after the Germans blow up memorial.

Tuesday 23rd : The 5th Guards Tank Army enters Ebling on Baltic and Koniev reaches the river Oder in Silesia.

Thursday 25th : Zhukov cuts off the Poznan Fortress with holds 66,000 Germans and continues his 50-mile a day advance.

Friday 26th : Himmler is put in command of Army Group Vistula by Hitler. The Russians isolate three German armies in East Prussia. Auschwitz concentration camp is captured by the Russians.

Saturday 27th : Russians troops capture Memel on Baltic Coast after the German evacuation, which now leaves the whole of Lithuania in Russian hands.

Wednesday 31st : Two of Zhukov’s armies establish a bridgehead on the Oder, to the North of Küstrin and less than 40 miles from Berlin.

February

Saturday 3rd : The Russians capture Landsberg, 80 miles Northeast of Berlin.

Thursday 8th : Koniev breaks out of his Oder bridgehead north of Breslau, with six armies.

Saturday 10th : Rokossovsky’s attack towards Neustett is halted by desperate German counter attacks. Koniev reaches the Neisse encircling Glogau. 16,000 Germans try to break out from Budapest.

Thursday 15th : Russian troops are now covering approaches to Danzig. Breslau, 189 miles South East of Berlin is surrounded. The German Eleventh Army begins a short-lived counterattack at Stargard in Pomerania.

Friday 23rd : The Russians capture Poznan after a month-long siege.

Saturday 24th : Germans counter attacks wipe out the Russian Hron bridgehead over the Danube to the North West of Budapest.

Wednesday 28th : Rokossovsky captures Neustettin.

March

Sunday 4th : The First Belorussian Front breaks through at Stargard and drives towards Stettin.

Monday 5th : The German Second Army is cut off in Pomerania as Russian 19th Army reaches the Baltic.

Thursday 15th : Koniev launches a pincer movement to clear Upper Silesia.

Tuesday 20th : German troops of Army Group Weichsel evacuate their bridgehead across the Oder at Stettin. The Russians capture Braunsberg, 40 miles South of Königsberg.

Friday 23rd : The Russian reach the outskirts of Danzig and Gotenhafen.

Saturday 24th : The 1st Ukrainian Front captures Neisse in Upper Silesia.

Monday 26th : The Russians take Papa and Devecser, both German strong points covering the approaches to the Austrian border. The Reichsführer-SS is replaced by General Heinrici as Commander in Chief of Army Group Weichsel.

Tuesday 27th : Bitter street fighting in Danzig as the Russians force their way into the City defences. A German counterattack from the Frankfurt bridgehead toward Küstrin bogs down after only a few miles.

Wednesday 28th : The Russians capture Gdynia, along with 9,000 prisoners, after a long struggle. The 1st Belorussian Front captures Gotenhafen north of Danzig. Hitler replaces General Guderian with General Krebs as chief of OKH.

Thursday 29th : The Russians seize the oilfields South of Komorn in Hungary, the last source of petroleum for the German war effort.

Friday 30th : Russians troops finally capture Danzig, capturing 45 U-boats and taking 10,000 prisoners. Breslau and Glogau are surrounded, 180 miles South East of Berlin. Russian troops cross the Austrian border to the North of Koszeg. German troops of Army Group Weichsel evacuate their last remaining bridgehead at Wollin to the North of Stettin.

April

Monday 2nd : The 3rd Ukrainian Front and Bulgarian forces take Nagykanizsa, thereby gaining control of the main Hungarian oil production region. 2nd Ukrainian front under Malinovsky conquers the industrial area of Mosonmagyarovar and reaches the Austrian border between Dounau and the Neusiedler lake.

Friday 6th : Four Russian armies, 137,000 men, 530 tanks and 2,400 aircraft begin their assault of Königsberg, which is held by 35,000 Germans troops.

Monday 9th : Russians secure Königsberg, after the commander of "fortress Königsberg" General Lasch surrenders (and for this condemned to death in Germany).

Tuesday 10th : With the battle of Vienna ongoing, the German 6th SS Panzer Army succeeds in defeating fierce Russian attacks into the districts of Wiener Neustadt and to the West of Baden. The besieged Germans in Breslau continue to repel the repeated Russian attacks. A German war communiqué now declares that the resistance in Königsberg has ceased, but that no surrender has occurred.

Saturday 14th : The Germans announce that Army Group Weichsel under General Henrici, is being heavily engaged by the Russians at Frankfurt an der Oder.

Sunday 15th : The 3rd Ukrainian front occupies Radkesburg and the 2nd Ukrainian front attacks in the direction of Brno in Czechoslovakia.

Monday 16th : Hitler issues the last Order of the Day to the Eastern Front, saying ‘He who gives orders to retreat . . . is to be shot on the spot’. Zhukov and Koniev start the final offensive on Berlin along the Oder-Neisse line.

 

March 1945 45 U-boats captured in the bay of Danzig ? Ah.......hmmmmmmmmm and 10,000 prisoners mostly old men and women and children.

~E

 

Indeed Erich!

....some kinda word blindness must have struck even though I tried to read the site as well as possible.

I tried to check it later last night in the books on March 1945 in Danzig, and I think there were several boats sunk in the harbor, yet not the number of German E-boats very precisely. I guess the boats were 1.sunk 2.civilian ships of all size to carry people away 3. E-boats that were counted.

So I don´t think they actually were U-boats...
Thanx for noting Erich!

According to a book I have there came some 20 000-30 000 civilians per day and quite alot were shipped away, and as well the last shipments were almost done as the Russians finally conquered the area. But I do think that 10 000 maybe a low value of the people caught in Danzig harbor area, I´ll check the soldier number later on, but I would not be surprised if among others 10 000 soldiers were caught.

I´ll be back on this in a few days´ time.

Sorry about the mistake!

[ 30. April 2003, 01:25 AM: Message edited by: Kai-Petri ]

 

this maybe weird kai, but just about everything that could sail was ordered to rescue, military and civilian personell. I have a couple of pic of Schnellboote's with masses of people and belongings with the AA crews barely able to turn their guns. U boats packed with people as the boats had to make surface runs, although the Fla guns were able to be used...poor civilians must have been scared out of their minds. I have an account somewhere where at least 20 boats sailed off west together in a large pack allowing their fla to cross over one another in cast of a Soviet air attack, I think it was something like over 100 Aa could be brought to bear if need be.....will have to find if this is the account.
There is no doubt that Danzig and the Hela Bay was hotly contested. My good friend Helmuth and his brother were there and they have the first person-chilling tales documented to the fullest.

~E