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Honest question: please explain, what I missed about NCI's conclusions, if I did miss something?

Discussion in 'Pearl Harbor' started by DogFather, Jul 27, 2011.

  1. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Conspiracy theorists reject hard work and serious inquiry, Takao. It's one of their hallmarks.
     
  2. Tristan Scott

    Tristan Scott Member

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    Also conspiracy theorist cherry pick only data (true or not) that will support their theory, ignoring data that contradicts it.
     
  3. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Cherry picking. They see a cloud of little red dots and don't notice the tree supporting them.
     
  4. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    Isn't that philosophical approach loosely called "inductive" reasoning? Find an agenda/position and then look for arguments that support your preconceived notion. From the specific to the general.

    As opposed to "deductive" reasoning which goes from the general to the specific as driven by evidence.
     
  5. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Yep. It's one test for whether or not you're doing proper science or something else.
     
  6. DogFather

    DogFather Member

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    I joined back in Aug 2009. That is where I first ran into forum watchdog and your buddy. I have done some self imposed Cooler time. You mad cause I used your material for posts?

    That's not okay? I can reword if necessary, that's not real hard to do. Is there anything I can do escape all your rath? I'll try and behave in the future, y'know stuff like that.
     
  7. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    If you don't misquote me I have no problem with you quoting me. If you do misquote me, be prepared for the consequences, whatever forum you're on.
    Start by being honest about your motives. So far you've only fooled yourself, and it shows badly. Then, it would be great if you'd stop spamming the internet with your conspiracy theories. I can take a single line from one of your OPs and feed it to Google and see how many times you copy pasta'd it around. You're obviously campaigning, hoping someone will be convinced by your arguments. The fact that you get negative responses from so many people, whether or not I'm on that forum and whether or not I've commented on forums where I am a member, should be a clue to you that there's something wrong with your "mission", whatever it is.

    Dog Father, you are like the guy who insists on bringing up the "radar reports from the North Pole" to prove that Santa exists.
     
  8. DogFather

    DogFather Member

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    It has been suggested by my intel dept, that I reclassify you as a capital ship, in our own right. And apologize for my
    past behavoir, in posts I have made. I would like to continue our discussion, if that is still possible, at some point in the
    future.
     
  9. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Don't bother if you can't do this:
     
  10. belasar

    belasar Court Jester Staff Member

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    I am becoming dissapointed with myself. I keep returning to this thread like the ghoul who keeps driving around the block just so he can watch the firemen hose down the blood on the sidewalk.
     
    lwd and ULITHI like this.
  11. steverodgers801

    steverodgers801 Member

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    The army was responsible for defending the fleet while in harbor and Short made the most critical mistake in not preparing at all for an air attack. Kimmel's mistakes was in not checking with Short to see what was being done for defences. Kimmel never realized that Short was thinking only about land battles. The FBI told Short about a intercepted conversation from a Japanese spy in Hawaii discussion flowers and search lights on the night of the 6th. Short decided not to talk to Kimmel about this warning.
     
  12. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Now, Steve, be fair. The FBI duly passed the "Mori Message" on to both the Navy & Army Intelligence. It just so happens, that in this instance, Army intelligence was faster, a result of their respective members being able to contact one another. It also did not help matters, that the message, while sounding "fishy", did not contain anything that could be construed as "incriminating". While the message generated a lot of talk, it generated nothing in the way of action amongst the Americans.
     
  13. steverodgers801

    steverodgers801 Member

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    Which was my point that SHort had information and chose to not act on it. I had never heard that the Navy got the message. The other point was If Kimmel and SHort actually talked to each other about the defence then Kimmel may have been less responsible. It is a part of the tragedy that the army and navy allowed their rivalry to affect their performance
     
  14. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Yes, the FBI passed the message to the Navy. FBI station chief, Robert L. Shivers, attempted to contact Captain Irving Mayfield, head of the Navy District Intelligence Office(DIO) for the 14th Naval District. However, he was unable to reach Captain Mayfield, so he passed the message along to Lieutenant Denzel Carr, a Japanese expert at ONI, and asked that he continue to try and contact Captain Mayfield. Mayfield was finally gotten a hold of, and word was passed along. Captain Mayfield then contacted Edwin Layton, and arranged a morning meeting between the two to discuss the message. Of course, that meeting, on the morning of December 7th, 1941, never took place.
     
  15. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    And investigation after the war determined it was exactly what it appeared to be, an horticultural article. No spying done that way. Yoshikawa was already supplying the information that was suspected of being passed in that telephone conversation.
     
  16. steverodgers801

    steverodgers801 Member

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    I still say it was indicative of how little Short and Kimmel worked with each other.
     
  17. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Short was supposed to be working with Com14th, not Kimmel.
     
  18. steverodgers801

    steverodgers801 Member

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    Yes there was a triangle of responsibilities, but I still feel that Kimmel should have at least found out from Short what was going on to protect the fleet. He didnt have to make suggestions or anything. The overall crucial mistake was no one realized that Short was talking a whole different lanquage as far as defensive efforts. If Washington had found out the snafu in understanding the results couold have been quite different.
     
  19. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Kimmel wasn't assigned to coordinate local defense with the Army. That was Com14th's job. CinCUS wasn't supposed to have to worry about that, his job was to get the US Fleet ready for war. I fault Kimmel for a lot of things, but not for this.
     

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