How do we define good patriots?

I have split off the whole selfishness / sex thing - it is now in the Member's Lounge, with the bowdlerised title Selfishness / Motivation

Cheers,
Ricky

So, how do we define good patriots?

I'd say it is one that correctly intercepts a scud...

 

how to define a patriot


timothy Mcveigh


invictus : cry:

 

Would you care to explain why you think someone who blows up 168 of his own people is a patriot?

 

He fought for what his nation was about , against the majority of his own
people who were unwilling to see the true as he saw the true , and then
accepted the consequences of his act , with dignity , he was free , fighting
for his belief , a good son of the america revolution . right or wrong !

would we be worthy of his respect ??

 

I'm not sure whether setting off a bomb in the middle of a town (next to a children's day-care centre) is really an appropriate way to uphold the Constitution...

By that measure, all IRA bombings of Britain were by good patriots whom we should all salute (ditto ETA, the Basques, etc)

 

I wouldn't want Timothy McVeigh's respect. He was a cowardly, cold-blooded mass murderer, nothing more. And I am quite certain that he is burning in Hell even as we speak, for he never once, AFAIK, repented of what he did, nor showed remorse for the deaths of any of his victims, not even the children. He was NOT a patriot, but merely a criminal!

 

was john Brown a patriot
he was arrested by a young officer called R. E. Lee ,
was Lee a good patriot ?
to the united States , to the United states , to Virginia ??

 

jeaguer, you bring up interesting people!

John Brown was trying to mount an insurrection not on political grounds, but on his own moral grounds. Was he right? Perhaps. (that Q/A is gonna get me shot!) Technically, his act was criminal, so he was arrested and prosecuted. Yes, by Bobby Lee.

Lee saw his ultimate loyalty as due to Virginia. Thus, while he served proudly in the US Army, in combat, he went where his heart told him to go after the Secession. Yes, he broke his oath to the US Government. The US Government had a right to consider his actions treasonous. Yet if he felt his higher loyalty was to the Commonwealth of Virginia (which could lead us to the whole argument about the original intent of the Federal Government, State's Rights, etc., but I hope it won't in this thread!), then in his heart, he felt he was doing the right thing?

Washington, Adams, Hancock, et. al. Were they patriots or traitors? Well, since they won the rebellion, they're considered patriotic heroes. Had the Colonists been beaten, they damned sure would have been hanged as traitors to the crown.

McVeigh can rot in Hell. Had he attacked the White House, the Congress, something like that, I could have at least understood an attack on what he (and others, admittedly) perceived as an oppressive government. By attacking a bunch of clerks, and their kids, he blew it. No pun intended.

 

Thanks Tom, you got the picture ,

patriotism is , I believe , a deeply felt allegiance to one's forefathers .
and their values , it is Not flag worship , obedience to some administration
or to the dictate of some recent law or other .
with this outlook each person is it's own supreme court , to judge one's
action against the values of one's own heroes .

it is a heady and dangerous brew ,

How many Timothy will come back from this war ?

 

jeageur
Timothy McVeigh could have fought in ways much more deserving of respects. I don't think cowardly terrorism deserves any respect. Martin Luther King, Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, etc. fought and suffered for it... they deserve respect.

To be frank I find your comment on him being a "good son of the america revolution" rather appalling. :-?

 

Jeaguer, it would help if you would make your point explicit immediately, preventing pretty much everyone who has posted here from misunderstanding your implied message and sarcasm. It is simply very hard to communicate sarcasm through a written medium.

Only just now did it occur to me that you meant to say (correct me if I'm wrong) that patriotism is a dangerous thing because of the deeds of those who may be considered patriots in their own way, such as McVeigh.

 

To all ,especially the good and proud U.S. citizens
Roel commmented justly about my debating style ,
Throw grenades and see what got flushed out .

the only plea I can enter is than in a world of preconcieved notions
and heavily manipulated information , sometimes explosives can
open a passage to the light
all good truths will stand , falshood will crumble

as for timothy , he fought , purple heart in koweit , bodyguard to
schwartzcopf, came back disillusioned
for the republic to have lost one such as him , the normal joe , the boy
next door , the good son , is a tragedy .

 

Provoking heated responses never helps a debate, and seemingly supporting outrageous statements while your actual opinions remain incomprehensible does not help your credibility on a forum. For your sake and that of the forum I would ask you to refrain from this debating style in the future.

The point above could have been brought forward in many more subtle ways than the one you used.

 

How to define a patriot


I totally agree with Lee than a patriot stand is based on an higher loyalty.
an as such will discard the technical legal consequences of one's act .

difficult grounds indeed ,
and where does delusion begin

Lee was above all ,a gentleman from virginia
Brown , a servant of the lord to strike evil .
thimothy was a 1776 minuteman protecting freedom against a
government oppression.

as for my personnal point of view , it is the few who rose who made us
all free , most people ,myself included would hold their peace , close
their eyes or shrug .bearing what we can , suffering what we must .

most often the fews are wrong , sensless are their acts are technicaly
criminal , civilised society has a right to self defence , for the greater
good ,after all

but when a society has no rebel , then it is doomed.
timothy claim the mantle of a patriot , right or wrong
he believed in his country enough to give all for it ,

would we be worthy of his respect .


invictus

 

And yet you continue to do it?

Timothy McVeigh may have been a patriot in his own eyes, fighting for the values he thought were right, but his ways are unjustifiable. Similarly would you consider Muslim suicide bombers good patriots? What a good patriot is, is not only defined by what he stands for, but also by how he fights his war. There is a disctinct difference between fighting a power considered oppressive, in all-out open warfare, and blowing up a random government building with women and children inside.

 

this is becoming a tennis match ,

hummm ! while my love for things arabic is small indeed

let's try this one for size ,
you are born in a refugee camp ,son and grand son of a refugee ,the
camp is in your own country but some people from everywhere claim it
as their , their have all the weapons , nukes ,planes , tanks ,intel .
you have rocks , the world will do nothing !

what is it to be a good palestinian patriot

I try to keep to the thread of the discution for the sake of an intelligent
debate and have not been disrespectful to any forum member ,
if offence has been taken ,I would earnestly offer reparation to the full
extend of the justice of the case .
this site is mainly about something of great interest to me ...WW2 Tanks
they are weapons of war , anyone with such an interest should be able to
take some verbal flack .

 

It's not that your posts would directly offend someone, it's rather that the way of debating that you use here leads to nothing but a tense atmosphere and hostile feelings. I would ask you not to do this anymore.

 

fair call , for the sake of the site , i'll put a sock in it !

 

Absolutely, Roel! There is no way that McVeigh's actions can be justified. I don't care how pissed off you are with the US Government, you don't kill a bunch of unarmed civilians, especially children. You wanna start a fight with the government, do so via lawful means.

 

for some of the most radical , there is a break down in the social contract
and the law is only a mean of oppresion ,or the tool of an illegitimate
power foreign or domestic
then the law is no recourse and a state of war, over or covert , exist
this situation has happened many times , in many places

The ultimate test is if the active population agree or not .
In the case of timothy , the militia movement was decimated by popular
rejection in less than a year