Welcome to the WWII Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the community.

How Germany could've won?

Discussion in 'Alternate History' started by Jborgen, May 5, 2011.

  1. von Poop

    von Poop Waspish

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2006
    Messages:
    6,307
    Likes Received:
    1,922
    Location:
    Perfidious Albion
    Again:
    They couldn't have won, by any metric.
    Pretty much every single statistical line you follow leads to defeat without magic wand thinking.

    And that's the fun part of all this bollocks. :pipesmoke:

    Now where's that nuclear montage... Pretty much sums it all up.
     
  2. Carronade

    Carronade Ace

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    3,330
    Likes Received:
    869
    Are you suggesting launching war against the western Allies before occupying Czechoslovakia (March 39) or even the Sudetenland (September 1938)? Not to mention Poland.

    If we are going to cite Allied unpreparedness for war, we should also consider German. The Panzer III and IV were just entering production; even in May 1940 the Czech 35t and 38t represented about 1/3 of German 37-75mm-gunned tanks. In 1938 the Czech army alone would have been a formidable opponent; Czech weapons, equipment, and manufacturing facilities became a major part of Germany's warmaking potential.
     
  3. Biak

    Biak Boy from Illinois Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2009
    Messages:
    9,230
    Likes Received:
    2,579
    Germany tried twice. Some people never learn. But then again, we're friends now and no more World Wars.
     
  4. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2008
    Messages:
    18,755
    Likes Received:
    5,858
    "Measure twice, cut once."
     
    RichTO90 and Biak like this.
  5. Carronade

    Carronade Ace

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    3,330
    Likes Received:
    869
    “We taught them a lesson in nineteen-eighteen,
    and they’ve hardly bothered us since then.”

    - Tom Lehrer, MLF Lullaby
     
    RichTO90 likes this.
  6. Biak

    Biak Boy from Illinois Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2009
    Messages:
    9,230
    Likes Received:
    2,579
    Which reminds me of the time back in my youth in shop class, wouldn't ya know, A fellow student who shouldn't be named, ( Bob Hammerick), went to the teacher and proclaimed rather adamantly , I've cut this board Twice ! and its still to damn short !!
     
  7. T. A. Gardner

    T. A. Gardner Genuine Chief

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2003
    Messages:
    6,189
    Likes Received:
    928
    Location:
    Phoenix Arizona
    Except in government and the military where you measure it with a micrometer, mark it with a crayon, and cut it with a chainsaw, all to the 20 page specification.
     
    Otto and Riter like this.
  8. Riter

    Riter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2020
    Messages:
    1,078
    Likes Received:
    307
    Even if a peace treaty was made with France with France being neutral as part of the peace treaty and the Germans returned across the Rhine, Germany still had a two front war (Med and Russia). Germany could not outproduce the Allies and still would have lost.
     
  9. Generic Username

    Generic Username New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2021
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    1
    WWII basically came down to the question of whether or not Germany could knock out the USSR in the 1941-1943 time-frame. American political and military planning held out-correctly in my view-that in such an eventuality the German position in Europe would've been unassailable and the proper response would be to conclude an armistice with the Reich. So, with that established, how to achieve that?

    If you want a super easy way of doing it, have Richard Sorge die in a motorcycle accident by late 1940 at the latest. Without his intelligence work, Stalin doesn't initiate a partial mobilization in April of 1941, and thus when the Germans attack come June the RKKA doesn't have 800,000 men joining its ranks at that exact critical moment. The Germans and their Axis allies now have a decisive advantage and avoid the whole Moscow or Kiev debate by having the means of taking both by September. Leningrad is extremely likely to follow and that means you have an extremely weak, rump USSR in 1942 that will probably collapse under German pressure. The Western Allies probably cut a deal in 1943 and then we settle into a Cold War between the Anglo-American Bloc and the European Axis who control everything from the Urals to Brittany.
     
  10. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2010
    Messages:
    9,931
    Likes Received:
    3,332
    I have some German Friends here in Darwin and they have been following whats been going on in Germany over the years...They tell me how they have been taught to "not mention the war" and aren't allowed to commemorate and celebrate their fallen fathers and grand fathers from WW2...I remind them that their grand fathers almost ruled the world...A stunning effort from one country.
    I tell them that Europe needs a strong, kick-arse Germany in today's climate with the illegal immigrants flooding into GermanyEurope and Russia throwing its weight around...My friends agree with me...Indeed their arguements sound scarily like those thrown around in Germany 1936...
    And then i read this:
    Far right set to win in a German state for the first time since WWII - The Washington Post

    This time they are on our side...
     
  11. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2010
    Messages:
    9,931
    Likes Received:
    3,332
    German Bundeswehr:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  12. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2008
    Messages:
    18,755
    Likes Received:
    5,858
    I'm curious as to your sources for this. Seems I missed it.
     
  13. Generic Username

    Generic Username New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2021
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    1
    Mark Stoler's Allies and Adversaries: The Joint Chiefs of Staff, the Grand Alliance, and U.S. Strategy in World War II.

    From Page 72:

    Stoler's basis for this were the following documents, which I have been able to verify exist but I haven't been able to get a hold of myself:

    J.P.S 85, "Strategic Policy of the United Nations and the United States on the Collapse of Russia’’
    • The report dates from August 7–8, 1942.
    • Alternate report numbers are J.P.S 43 or J.C.S 85, same title.
    • It should be located in the National Archives, Record Group 218, CCS381 (3-5-42)

    "Conditions under Which an Armistice Might Be Negotiated between the United Nations and the European Powers"
    • The report dates from June 11, 1942
    • Major General George Strong is its author.
    • Alternate report title/indexing number is S. Document 22, from the Department of State archives.
    • It should be located in the Notter Papers, box 76, RG 59, NA.
    I reached out to Stoler but he's unfortunately lost them since he wrote his book and in his advanced age can't really get them again. Still, titles are pretty damning alone.
     
    Carronade likes this.
  14. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2008
    Messages:
    18,755
    Likes Received:
    5,858
    Hai! Domo arigato!
     
    Generic Username likes this.
  15. Carronade

    Carronade Ace

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    3,330
    Likes Received:
    869
    Interesting that such discussions were being held and recorded.

    It occurs to me that Roosevelt's "unconditional surrender" declaration came after the Soviets had weathered the Germans' 1942 offensive, launched another successful counteroffensive, and were on the verge of destroying a German army.
     
    Generic Username likes this.
  16. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2008
    Messages:
    18,755
    Likes Received:
    5,858
    The Soviets were preparing to fall back behind the Urals, the first significant obstacle after most of the major rivers were crossed.
     

Share This Page