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How Hitler could have won

Discussion in 'What If - Other' started by chromeboomerang, Jul 23, 2006.

  1. Militant

    Militant Dishonorably Discharged

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    Well, concerning the latter question- the Japanease at that time were imperialistic and wanted to build an empire and they'd probably have quite a chunk of Russia- not a bad prize.

    Also, Russia and Japan were rivals ever since the Russo-Japanease war of 1904.

    If the Jerries attacked in the spring it would at least given them more time, and it wont be so long before the Nazi-Japanease force conquer all of Russia, afterall Moscow is the capital.

    The year does not matter, i expect the Soviets would still move troops (even more likely to) because Hitler would be even stronger.
     
  2. freebird

    freebird Member

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    Is that in another thread?
    "Is to the conclusion" of who? :confused:
     
  3. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    Siberia isn't much of a prize in the time-frame here. Nothing there for the Japanese to gain from. Land is just that, land.

    The Japanese had been handed their hats with their heads in them by the Soviets in their two experiences, and had nothing to gain by invading the bleak and resource barren Siberian territories. And BTW, there were more Soviet troops left in the far east than you think. Soviet troops in the far east on 22 June 1941:

    17 rifle divisions, 1 cavalry division, 3 rifle brigades, 1 airborne brigade, and 12 fortified regions organized into five rifle corps and four rifle armies.

    Soviet troops in the far east on 1 January 1942:

    19 rifle divisions, 1 cavalry division, 2 rifle brigades, 1 airborne brigade, 2 cavalry regiments, 1 rifle regiment, and 12 fortified regions organized into four rifle corps and five rifle armies.

    Apparently, even when units were sent west, they were replaced by new formations, so the Soviets didn't really let down their guard vis-a-vis Japan. There are also artillery and tank units listed in the order of battle, what is listed above are the major combat formations, and does not include units assigned to the Trans-Baikal Front. The Soviets well remembered the embarrassment of the 1904 Russo-Japanese war.


    This now dead link to a source is in Russian, but I had it translated for my post by a friend on another now defunct forum (Historic-Battles):

    ????????? ?? ???? "????????? ?????????????? ????????? ?? ??????? ?????? ??????? ?????"

    The Japanese couldn't afford to engage this Far East portion of the Red Army, especially as it was supplemented by about 80,000 Mongolian regulars supplied with Soviet weaponry. Coupling this with the divided power base in the Japanese Central Command (as mentioned by Karma) and it is pretty easy to understand why the Japanese were loath to "aid" the Nazis in their ill-advised attack on the Soviet Union.

    So let’s see, Hitler didn’t plan on attacking the USSR much before late May in any event, and was only diverted for a short time to secure his right flank and protect his oil fields before he attacked east. The weather kept him to the months he had, and starting earlier wouldn’t change that in the least. The Japanese couldn’t help him, and had felt betrayed when he broke their "Anti-Commintern Pact", and signed his own "non-aggression pact" with Stalin.

    First off, Hitler originally had his staff start to put together a plan to attack in May of 1941, he never even set the plan for any earlier. Then when the Italians failed in the Balkans, he recognized that his right flank would be exposed if he didn’t do something, so he sent his forces into that area to protect that area, and his own oil fields in Romania. He couldn’t ignore that and attack earlier.

    Then add to that the late spring, and heavy rainfall it was going to be about mid to late June in any event. Top that off with the earlier than usual fall rains, which started in early to mid-October instead of late October early November, and there you are. Until the mud froze in November, the Heer was stuck, literally.
     
  4. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Staff Member Patron  

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  5. freebird

    freebird Member

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    I just get an error message....

    Maybe it's only visible to Mods?
     
  6. Tomcat

    Tomcat The One From Down Under

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    The Conclusion of the majority of this board, if you are interested or doubtful of this then feel free to go through the threads regarding the invasion of Russia both as General ww2 topics and the Alternate History Sub Forum.
     
  7. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Staff Member Patron  

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    Sorry, my fault. Do a search on Barbarossa. There are a multitude of threads dealing with it, both as an Alternate History discussion and a factual discussion of what happened. The general consensus is that it was doomed to failure, no matter the circumstances. I would suggest reading through a few of the factual discussions to get a sense of what members think.
     
  8. Tomcat

    Tomcat The One From Down Under

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    There is probably even part of that discussion in this thread.
     
  9. woden

    woden recruit

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    First, Hitler needed to understand that his military could not fulfill all his ambitions. Secondly, Germany needed to switch roles after Kiev (1941). From then on, it should have been about defense and no more all out offensives. He needed to be prepared to switch to the defense at some point as his forces were at their very limits. I think it would have been very good judgment to start thinking long-term defense after Kiev. Given the allies don't invade, it would have been more difficult for the Russians to win. The Russians would have pushed and pushed, succeeding in knocking the Germans back significantly. But far more Russians would have died, in this case. So much so that even Stalin may have considered canceling any planned counter invasion. If Hitler survived the Russians, Germany would be a significant power, perhaps even to this day.

    I don't think Barbarossa was a bad thing really. However, Hitler did not intend for it to be a preemptive attack on Russia. He did it to satisfy his own selfish desires.
     
  10. BillH

    BillH recruit

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    Well heres a thought, Hitlers anti-semitic policies caused him to lose the war above any other failure or judgement. How many loyal and patriotic German males of military age did not fight for the fatherland because they were jewish? Not to mention all the great scientific minds, jewish and gentile alike, who fled Nazi Germany and aided the US in weapons development- particularly the atomic bomb. Sure a invading England and not waging a winter assault on the Russians would have helped but not being a raging anti-semite really could have been a big boon to the German war machine.
     
  11. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    If im not mistaken by the time Hitler came to power, German Jews made up about 1% of the population?? Considering that most were not men of fighting age, Germany would not have benefited greatly.
     
  12. efestos

    efestos Member

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    IMHO it isn´t about how many Jews, homosexuals and free-men the nazis persecuted, murdered or made to be exiled but How good they were:


    I'm thinking about the fision of the uranium and Lise Meitner in january 1939. She was exiled in sweeden, in her nephewOtto Robert Frisch so the Nazis lost the posibility of cover the discovery. The German-born Rudolf Peierls :Frisch–Peierls memorandum, Wich claimed first time that is was possible to make a suitable air-launched A-Bomb.

    The madness of Adolph Hitler got a "Missing generation of physicists"

    Radar ... Chemistry...just a pair of guys to prevent the decodification of Enigma...

    Many projects failed because the calculations were wrong. This way the Nazi nuclear project relayed on Heavy (and expensive) water as moderator instead of the cheaper graphite...

    Just imagine an "example" in reverse, on the Allied side: That Alan Turing would have died in an arrest caused by his homosexual status (in fact died in a way so after the war) but before the war. Enigma decoding would have been considerably delayed. What was a man in front of the millions of inhabitants of the British Empire? Adolph would have sent , in fact he did it, his german couterpart to Datchau.
     
  13. belasar

    belasar Court Jester

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    Hitler's Germany was hideously wastefull of all reasorces, including human. One shot weapons (V1, V2), overengineered tanks (Panther,Tiger) large private armies (SS-26 numered divisions or equivilents, Luftwaffe- 11 Fallshirmjeager, 2 Panzer, 12 Field [Infantry] divisions, Large portions of the ReichsBahn tied up with the 'final solution', hundred of thousands of russian prisoners willing to work as construction troops simply for a full belly. The list seems endless.
     
  14. Volga Boatman

    Volga Boatman Dishonorably Discharged

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    What is totally ironic about Nazi policy towards Jewish people is that many Jews had emigrated to the Kaiser's Germany after the Russians had persecuted and killed many in the aftermath of their defeat in 1915. Imperial Germany welcomed Western Russia's Jews and they fervently hoped to get a better deal, and were in fact welcomed with open arms.

    Russian anti-semitism, particularly in the case of Yanushkevich, was "extreme".
     
  15. belasar

    belasar Court Jester

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    About a year ago I read a book called Ordinary Men about Order Battalion 100 of the German army. A facinating book about a unit that was niether regular army or military police, but was used for security/final solution tasks. The thrust was that they were ordinary men, police reservist's called up. Most were not rabid nazi's and yet they did run of the mill, everyday duties that made the "final Solution a reality.
    The book also detailed how Poles, Russian and Ukrainians willing worked with the Order battalions and the SS to round up Jews in the less urban ares occupied by Germany. The virus of anti-semitism went well beyond weimar Germany's border.
     
  16. Fury 1991

    Fury 1991 New Member

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    My understanding is there were Jews in the Waffen SS. I believe I read this somewhere. I don't believe this is as black and white as most people make it out to be.
     
  17. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    Not necessarily in the Waffen SS, but certainly in the Heer/Wehrmacht. At least the "half Jews" were. There were also a number of the "mischlings" and even full Jews in the offices of the Reich; Milch was one I think.

    See:

    Mark Enmeier: Jewish Soldiers in the German Army:
     
  18. belasar

    belasar Court Jester

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    Emil Maurice was of jewish desent but Himmler had to give the family "honorary Aryan" status on Hitler's orders. Maurice was an SA then SS member (SS member #2!!)and Hitler's Driver.
     
  19. Mark4

    Mark4 Ace

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    I find the whole "honorary Aryan" thing stupid hitler gave it to the Japanese and probably to himself.
     
  20. belasar

    belasar Court Jester

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    None of the senior Nazi leadership would have passed as "the true Aryan ideal". Hitler was squimish about blood, Goring obese, Goebbles lame, on and on.
     

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