How Hitler could have won

1. Even if Gibraltar falls the RN can stil keep the Axus from siezing the Azores,Cape Verde's and other such islands which means they could possibly loose Gibraltar and still have bases to replace it besides this type of operation can't be done on the fly it takes a little more planning.
2. No the Italian Fleet will be of very little utility because of it's short legs and Germany & italy had no expierence in this sort of operation . Also at the start of the war the Littorio & Vittorio Vento were not yet ready while 2 of her older BB's were still undergoing refits leaving just 2 BB's to the Italians while the Kriegsmarine didn't have very many major assets ready/fit for combat after the Norwiegion Campaign. The Airborne operation to Africa & the South Atlantic? This isn't like the Norway or Low Country or Crete campaigns this will be thousands of muiles away totally different.
3. Even if both Malta & Gibraltar fall the British can still maintain a vetry strong defensive position in Egypt.
4. Maybe but the British had basically already taken the French Fleet out of the equation.
5. No the Axis couldn't have put a much larger force into the Dessert Camapaign in the summer of 1940 simply because the ports of Libya didn't have the capacity to support a much larger force especially when they get very far into Egypt.
6. Once again logistics is against the Axis here how are they going to get to Italian East Africa? The Suez Canal? Around the cape of Good Hope?
7. refer to #5 above
8. It would been awfully hard to move a large force by air in the summer of 1940 after the Luftwaffe air transport losses in the Dutch Camapaign.
The others also suffer from similar logistics issues.

 

Are they? I thought most of the German forces were in Northern or at least central France. In any case they have to figure out what they have and come up with a plan. then there's the poor log network across Spain to contend with.

I'd like to see some references to this. It sounds like a pipe dream to me.

With the British reading the German mail it's also a potential dissaster in the making. The RN is still by far the strongest force in the Med.

Not happening right after the fall of France. Indeed the two countries (France and Britain) almost fored a union just before the fall of France. The Vichy and British had their disagreements but especially before the British attack on the French fleet I'm not sure I would say they hated them.

Could you post a map indicating what supply lines you plan on using for this?

Iraq was hard fought? How are the Germans going to get suffcient aircraft there and support them? What are they going to do on other fronts without these aircraft?

It's bad form in a what if to use multiple PODs or asssume everything brakes for one side.

Enough for now.

 

In my humble opinion germans could have won decisively only by mounting invasion of the Britain in august 1940.
They had a narrow window of opportunity, but sufficient factors on their side to succeed if they had made a sound strategic plans ready in advance.
Any other strategy would have led at best to some sort of stalemate.

 

Then you didn't read the original premise of the thread or my original post. The original premise was "could the Germans have won if they had followed Raeder's southern strategy?".

My response was that the southern strategy included many different related operations. All of these operations had to succeed in order for the southern strategy to work. I added a few more operations that would have presented themselves had Raeder's original targets been captured.

There is absolutely zero point in worrying about Italian East Africa if Malta and Gibraltar are not in Axis hands. Since the southern strategy as proposed by Raeder included taking both of those places, then it is not a stretch to say that Italian East Africa can now be supplied via Chad.

 

The panzer armies continued to press south until the armistice was signed. On June 22 Panzer Group Kleist and Panzer Group Guderian occupy a line running from just north of Bordeaux to just north of Limages to St. Etienne. From Bordeaux to San Sebastian is 150 miles. There is a good road and rail network which was not damaged during the campaign from Bordeaux to San Sebastian. From San Sebastian to Gibraltar is 660 miles. There are two good road and rail networks, one going through Madrid, a second going through Salamanca/Seville/Cadiz. Here is a map of the stop line of the Panzer advance on June 22 1940:

Hitler ordered such a plan. Both Goering and Raeder developed such a plan on their own prior to Hitler taking an interest. Not sure why you think it is so difficult to develop a plan which is basically "Order Panzer group Kleist and Panzer group Guderian to continue their advance southward to Gibraltar. Air borne troops would be flown in to bases in southern Spain as was done during the Spanish Civil War. The Spanish army was in the south of Spain ready to repel a feared Allied invasion. Hitler had only to move one Panzer group to Gibraltar and another Panzer group to northern Spain to allay Franco's fears that the British would invade northern Spain.

Seriously? The "poor log network" in the Ardennes didn't keep panzer groups from pouring into France. Get a map of the rail and road system of Spain in 1940. There are excellent road and railway networks running from San Sebastian to Gibraltar, one through Madrid and the the other through Salamanca.

So here you are arguing that an army which had just covered 650 miles, rolling over top of 4 Allied armies in the process, in a campaign lasting from May 10 to June 22 could not now continue their drive UNOPPOSED a further 700 miles? Please.

 

Don't forget here "currious..." that not only are Spanish rail gauges different from Eurpoean standard (I think they still are), there are only three ways through the Pyrenees mountains between France and Spain. And two of them skirt the shoreline and are open to sea and air bombardment.

It would have to be a "co-operative" effort with Spain's Franco, it could be a very costly and dicey operation if the Spanish fought back.

 

Do your own research, this is a well known plan, easy to find.

I'll summarize it for you.

Canary Islands - one of Franco's concerns was the need to reinforce the Canary Islands. The Canary Islands are 70 miles from Spanish territory in Spanish Sahara. In parallel to the assault on Gibraltar, air borne forces can be air lifted to the Canaries similar to what was done in reinforcing Tunisia after the Torch landings. The Luftwaffe, fresh from its victories in the Battle of France can easily obtain air supremacy over Spain, Gibraltar, and Spanish West Africa and the Canary Islands.

Cape Verde Islands - 300 miles off the coast of West Africa, lightly defended, can be taken by parachute attack. The following parachute units are available for this operation:
Italy:
1st National Libyan Parachute Battalion
1st Carabinieri Parachute Battalion
2nd Carabinieri Parachute Battalion
3rd Carabinieri Parachute Battalion
Germany:
1st Parachute Division

Azores - 930 miles from Lisbon. Has to be taken by amphibious landing. Raeder suggested using the German fleet and units from the Italian fleet (obviously this assumes Gibraltar has fallen). Given how spread out the British fleet was in summer of 1940, this may have worked. The British had a planned response to an Axis conquest of the Azores and threatend the Portuguese into reinforcing the Azores themselves or have it invaded by the British. Would Raeder's plan have worked? Raeder thought so. So did the British. There are a lot of possibilities here. With Gibraltar fallen the Italian submarines can be sent to help in the North Atlantic U-boat campaign. The British fleet that was based at Gibraltar now has to be based in British West Africa. The Luftwaffe can provide air cover around the Spanish and African west coast. The British Eastern Med fleet cannot assist in the operation. So, what do the British counter the invasion fleet with?

The Royal Navy was known for audacity and taking on long odds, so perhaps they can defeat the landing attempt. But, if Raeder is fast enough and can get some element of surprise, this may have worked. If the Vichy fleet can be sent further west, say to ports in Spain or Spanish territory in Africa, under the Luftwaffe air umbrella then perhaps Mers-el-Kébir doesn't happen and the Vichy fleet assists in the operation.

I think there are too many opportunities for the Axis here that you can just dismiss this operation out of hand.

Madeira - similar to Azores but very lightly defended and possible to take with an air borne operation.

 

With what or more properly in what? What sort of sound strategic plans could have offset the complete dominance of the RN and the inability of the LW do dominate the RAF?

 

Yes, I know about the rail guages. What does that matter? Spanish trains can be used. There is a good road network fallowing the same route. The Wermacht just proved capable of supplying offensive operations through the 600 miles from the Luxembourg border to Bordeaux. They can continue supplying a much smaller force from Bordeaux to Gibraltar.

Yes, I know the topography of the Pyrennes, which is why i said that the route to use is through San Sebastian.

You are making the same arguments that cost the French the war. "The terrain through the Ardennes is too difficult for large armies to pass through" How did that work out?

Seriously? The British air force is going to fly the 660 miles over neutral Spain and bombard Spanish railroads? And the Luftwaffe is doing what in the meantime?

The combined allied air forces of Britain, France, Holland, and Belgium could not disrupt Wermacht movement with bombing of their logistics network and you expect Spain and the pitiful RAF forces in the Western Med to do so?

What were the Spanish going to fight back with? Their army was in southern Spain confronting an expected allied invasion. I don't think Franco has a choice but to cooperate given that the Spanish army was in southern Spain facing an imagined British invasion.

I can give a detailed order of battle for the German forces to be used in the operation. All of these forces are readily on hand. Can you do the same for the Spanish and British forces that are going to do what the combined armies of Holland, Belgium, Great Britain and France could not do? You cannot because these forces do not exist. The Spanish army is in southern Spain. The British forces on the scene are too puny. The British would have to decide to reinforce Spain from Britain or the Med. That isn't happening in summer of 1940.

You are giving the Spanish capabilities of stopping the Germans to a degree that the combined armies, air forces and fleets of Great Britain, France, Belgium, and Holland could not accomplish.

I'm assuming that the Germans do something like this.
Goering advises Hitler on the southern strategy in early June (historic). Raeder advises Hitler on the southern strategy in mid June (historic).
Hitler discusses the issue with Mansteinn and Ritchenau (historic) who are enthusiastic and say "we can be there with two panzer armies in 7 days". Hitler invites Franco to a meeting on the Spanish French frontier. The Panzer armies have since moved up to the Spanish border. Hitler tells Franco that he is moving one panzer army to Gibraltar and one panzer army to northwest Spain to block any move by the Britisth. Hitler also says the Luftwaffe will be moving strong forces to southern Spain to provide an air umbrella for Spain. Franco has to give an answer to whether Spain is an ally or a neutral immediately. The panzers are moving regardless.

Now, given that the Spanish army is in southern spain, what can the Spanish do about this? What units will oppose the move of the panzer armies?

And what British air forces are going to be flying the 660 miles to bomb the raillines on the coast while the Luftwaffe opposes them? What British naval forces are going to be sailing to the Spanish coast (from either Britain, or British West Africa) to bombard the rail lines while under heavy Luftawffe attack?

How does Franco stop air borne troops from landing at Spanish air fields without being at war? Even if he goes to war the Spanish air force is in no position to confront the Luftwaffe.

If Hitler moves quickly and doesn't give Franco time to think about it, I think he gets Franco to agree to stay neutral with German forces defending Spain from an attack by British forces (that don't exist). If Hitler dallies then he risks the Allies backing up Franco and Franco deciding to resist the movement of the German forces into Spain.

Hitler had already shown that he could adopt audacious schemes on a whim if presented to him by favorites. Since two of his favorites presented pretty much the same idea within a few weeks I don't think it is so far fetched to think that he agrees to the plan, gets enthusiastic about it and pushes it forward.

 

If launched in summer of 1940 this is mostly an Italian operation, if combined with the declaration of war it can also be a surprise attack.

I don't see how the British Navy makes it the 850 nautical miles from Alexandria to Malta while the Italian Navy cover the 60 miles from Sicily. The Italians also had these airborne troops available:
1st National Libyan Parachute Battalion
1st Carabinieri Parachute Battalion
2nd Carabinieri Parachute Battalion
3rd Carabinieri Parachute Battalion

I don't see how the RN counters this move.

The British were not reading the German "mail" in the summer of 1940. They certainly were not reading the Italian" mail" in the summer of 1940.

 

OK, although how long would it have been before they were reconditioned and ready for battle again? My understanding is the panzerwaffe was in pretty bad shape by the end of the campaign. Mostly due to break downs but ...

From a previous discussion of this topic (on the axis history forum I think) it was suggested that the Spanish railroads were pretty marginal. If the Germans have to fight the Spanish they'll probably be in very bad shape. What do they have to get the Spanish to join them? They tried historically and failed.

It's one thing to come up with a general plan another to come up with a detailed one. Note that it is the failure of just such plans that lead to the German defeat in the USSR.

That's all? Are you serious? What about his fears of what the RN would do to his ports and commerce? Remember Spain was not self sufficient even in food. Indeed a lot of that came from the US....

I have. I've also been in converstations with those that no it's capacity and quality. Excellent was not the word they used.

Indeed an army that had just finished said campaign. Certainly they could do it but would it be fast enough to accomplish all they needed to acomplish before the British reacted?

 

All Hitler had to do was ask. Petain said as much.

No they didn't. The British proposed the union. The French rejected it out of hand and signed an armistace with Hitler instead.

Disagreements? Read some memoirs of French soldiers. French soldiers almost fought the British at Dunkirk because they were angry that their heavy equipment was being left behind and/or destroyed.

If Vichy loved the British so much why did they reject the Union offer and make an armistace with Germany instead?

Evidence that the French hated the British
1. Of the 100,000 French troops evacuated at Dunkirk only 10,000 joined de Gaulle and the Free French, the rest demanded to be repatriated.
2. Mers-el-kebir RN launched unprovoked attack against French Fleet in northwest africa
3. Dijibouti - British forces fleeing the Italian offensives in East Africa request permission to escape through Djoubouti, permission denied.
4. Dakar - Vichy forces soundly defeat a combined British/Free French invasion
5. Gibraltar - Vichy air forces bomb Gibraltar in retaliation for the attack on Dakar.
6. Lebanon/Syria - Vichy forces fight the British and Free French and suffer 6,000 casualties. Of the 38,000 Vichy prisoners captured in the Lebanon/Syria campaign only 5,700 choose to join the Free French, the rest demand to be repatriated to Vichy.
7. French Somaliland - Vichy forces fight Allied forces attempting to liberate the colony.
8. Vichy colonial forces - it is hard to get an accurate figure on the exact number of Vichy colonial forces. We know that there were 150,000 in Northwest Africa alone. There were perhaps another 50,000 in French West Africa, French Equatorial Africa, and French East Africa. Of these 200,000 forces 30,000 left to join the Allies of their own accord prior to the wars against the Allies. The defection of the 15,000 troops in Equatorial Africa could have been stopped if Hitler had sent air borne troops to defeat de Gaulle was requested by the Vichy leaders there.
9. Madagascar - British invade and occupy Madagascar while not at war with Vichy.

 

I read somewhere that if Hitler had stopped after retaking Memel from Lithuania he would have gone down as the greatest German leader ever (at least in Germany).

At that point Germany had thrown off the Versailles treaty, reunified with the Saarland, remilitarized the Rhineland, absorbed Austria, reunified with the Sudentenland, absorbed the short lived Czech Republic, and reunified with Memel.

If Hitler stops here does that qualify as "winning"?

 

If he stops there what does he win? If he stopped there, he wouldn't really be Hitler. And arguably, that much power will eventually cause tensions and/or conflict between either the Western Powers or the U.S.S.R. Whether or not Hitler actually participates in it, he would go down in history as the one who set the basis for the horrible war that would surely follow.

 

A couple of ponts on all of this Southern Strategy...
1. No airborne operations in this time frame to many of the Luftwaffe's transport planes were destroyed in the operations against the Low Countries.
2. Merchant Shipping..remember that alot of Italian shipping was caught by surprise by Mussolini's declaration of war and stranded overseas.
3. What fleet does the Axis have especially after the French Fleet was deestroyed ? The Italians have two old refitted CB's while the Kriegsmarine maybe,I repeat maybe has the services of one of the twins ,maybe 1 CA ,a couple of CL's and maybe a dozen DD's then of course getting them out into the Atlantic. Oh by the way have the RM & KM ever carried out any operations together?
4. It takes times to setup new bases or rather staging areas/supply depots in a land campaign (remember the 300 mile rule?) and even if Panzers drove all the way to Bordeaux how long did it take them?
5. Naval operations take alot of oil from some of my research Germany really didn't have the oil reserves to carry something like this out.

 

Source PLS.

Not from what I've read at least the out of hand part.

There is a difference between loving and not hating.

Not really evidence of hatred.

Lets see the British attacking the French proves the French hate the British. Nope. It was a reason for post event friction between the French and British but hardly relevant up to that time.

Would this not have violated the armistace? Certainly Germany wouldn't be happy about it. Hardly evidence of French hatred.

Self defence does not equal hatred.

See above. same for what follows

 

It takes a while to organize an invasion force and then they have to stand off the invasion beaches for a while. Also how far is it from the nearest Italian port to Malta? If Italy isn't at war yet then what are the odds the British have agents in most of Italy's port cities?

What did they have to move them?

Obviously

They were to some extent as far as the Germans were concerned. But even without that the sigint from German troops in Southern Italy would have been something of a warning sign. The Italians actually had much better opsec. Kind of ironic that the Germans blamed the Italians for loose security related losses later in the Med.

 

Planes?

 

1. Some was lost, not all.
2. 1.3 million tons was caught outside the Med. Mussolini could have avoided that problem with a little bit of planning. Adoption of the Southern Strategy might have provided that planning.

I know, now you are going to claim that the Axis were incapable of planning anything.

3. The French fleet was not destroyed. Damaged, yes, destroyed, no. Adoption of the southern strategy might have prevented the British attack on the French fleet. The Luftwaffe would be supplying air cover, the French fleet would be further west in support of the coming offensive. Even with the British attack the French still have naval assets in the Med and they still have their merchant fleet.

You don't know very much about the Italian navy OOB to make such a ridiculous claim.

Here is the Italian Navy OOB on June 10 1940, in addition to this they also had 117 submarines. I count 4 battleships, 17 heavy cruisers, 14 light cruisers, and 50 destroyes:
5th Battleship Division (Rear Admiral Brivonesi)
BB GIULIO CESARE
BB CONTE DI CAVOUR

7th Destroyer Squadron
DD FRECCIA
DD DARDO
DD SAETTA
DD STRALE

8th Destroyer Squadron
DD FOLGORE
DD FULMINE
DD BALENO
DD LAMPO

9th Battleship Division (Rear Admiral Bergamini)
BB LITTORIO
BB VITTORIO VENETO

14th Destroyer Squadron
DD UGOLINO VIVALDI
DD ANTONIO DA NOLI
DD LEONE PANCALDO

15th Destroyer Squadron
DD ANTONIO PIGAFETTA
DD NICOLO' ZENO
DD ALVISE DA MOSTO
DD GIOVANNI DA VERRAZZANO
DD LANZEROTTO MALOCELLO

1st Cruiser Division (Rear Admiral Matteucci)
CA ZARA
CA GORIZIA
CA FIUME

9th Destroyer Squadron
DD VITTORIO ALFIERI
DD ALFREDO ORIANI
DD GIOSUE' CARDUCCI
DD VINCENZO GIOBERTI

4th Crusier Division (Rear Admiral Marenco)
CL ALBERICO DA BARBIANO
CL LUIGI CADORNA
CL ALBERTO DA GIUSSANO
CL ARMANDO DIAZ
DD LANCIERE

8th Cruiser Division (Rear Admiral Legnani)
CL LUIGI DI SAVOIA DUCA DEGLI ABRUZZI (*)
CL GIUSEPPE GARIBALDI

16th Destroyer Squadron
DD NICOLOSO DA RECCO
DD ANTONIOTTO USODIMARE
DD TARIGO
DD EMANUELE PESSAGNO

2nd Fleet (Vice Admiral Paladini)

CA POLA (*)

12th Destroyer Squadron
DD CARABINIERE
DD CORAZZIERE
DD ASCARI

3rd Cruiser Division (Rear Admiral Cattaneo)
CA TRENTO (*)
CA BOLZANO
CA TRIESTE

11th Destroyer Squadron
DD ARTIGLIERE
DD CAMICIA NERA
DD AVIERE
DD GENIERE

7th Cruiser Division (Rear Admiral Sansonetti)
CL EUGENIO DI SAVOIA (*)
CL EMANUELE FILIBERTO DUCA D'AOSTA
CL MUZIO ATTENDOLO
CL RAIMONDO MONTECUCCOLI

13th Destroyer Squadron
DD GRANATIERE
DD FUCILIERE
DD BERSAGLIERE
DD ALPINO

2nd Cruiser Division (Rear Admiral Casardi)
CL GIOVANNI DALLE BANDE NERE (*)
CL BARTOLOMEO COLLEONI

10th Destroyer Squadron
DD MAESTRALE
DD LIBECCIO
DD GRECALE
DD SCIROCCO

Upper Tyrrenhian Sea Department (Vice Admiral Aimone di Savoia-Aosta)

10th Torpedo-Boat Squadron
TB VEGA
TB SAGITTARIO
TB PERSEO
TB SIRIO
TB GIACINTO CARINI
TB ANTONIO LA MASA

16th Torpedo-Boat Squadron
TB MONZAMBANO
TB CURTATONE
TB CASTELFIDARDO
TB CALATAFIMI

1st MAS Flottilla
TB STEFANO TUR
20 x MAS

Lower Tyrrenhian Sea Department (vice Admiral Pini)

1st Torpedo-Boat Squadron
TB AIRONE
TB ARIEL
TB ARETUSA
TB ALCIONE
TB ALBATROS

2nd Torpedo-Boat Squadron
TB PAPA
TB MONTANARI
TB CASCINO
TB CHINOTTO

3rd Torpedo-Boat Squadron
TB PRESTINARI
TB CANTORE

4th Torpedo-Boat Squadron
TB PROCIONE
TB ORIONE
TB ORSA
TB PERSEO

5th Torpedo-Boat Squadron
TB SIMONE SCHIAFFINO
TB DEZZA
TB GIUSEPPE LA FARINA
TB ABBA

9th Torpedo-Boat Squadron
TB CASSIOPEA
TB CANOPO
TB CAIROLI
TB ANTONIO MOSTO

12th Torpedo-Boat Squadron
TB ALTAIR
TB ANTARES
TB ALDEBARAN
TB ANDROMEDA

13th Torpedo-Boat Squadron
TB CIRCE
TB CLIO
TB CALLIOPE
TB CALIPSO

14th Torpedo-Boat Squadron
TB PARTENOPE
TB POLLUCE
TB PLEIADI
TB PALLADE

2nd MAS Flottilla
16 x MAS

4th MAS Squadron
4 x MAS

IONIAN AND LOWER ADRIATIC DEPARTMENT (Vice Admiral Pasetti)
CL BARI
CL TARANTO

2nd Destroyer Squadron
DD ESPERO
DD BOREA
DD ZEFFIRO
DD OSTRO

6th Destroyer Squadron
DD ROSOLINO PILO
DD FRANCESCO STOCCO
DD GIUSEPPE MISSORI
DD SIRTORI
DD AUGUSTO RIBOTY
DD MIRABELLO

7th Torpedo-Boat Squadron
TB ANGELO BASSINI
TB COSENZ
TB GIACOMO MEDICI
TB NICOLA FABRIZI

3rd MAS Squadron
2 x MAS


Upper Adriatic Sea Department (Vice Admiral Ferdinando di Savoia)

15th Torpedo-Boat Squadron
TB CONFIENZA
TB SOLFERINO
TB SAN MARTINO
TB PALESTRO
TB GIOVANNINI

6th MAS Squadron
4 x MAS



Aegean Sea Naval Command (Rear Admiral Biancheri)

4th Destroyer Squadron
DD FRANCESCO CRISPI
DD QUINTINO SELLA

8th Torpedo-Boats Squadron
TB LUPO
TB LINCE
TB LIRA
TB LIBRA

3rd MAS Flottilla
15 x MAS

Lybia Naval Command (Rear Admiral Brivonesi)

1st Destroyer Squadron
DD TURBINE
DD AQUILONE
DD EURO
DD NEMBO

11th Torpedo-Boat Squadron
TB CIGNO
TB CASTORE
TB CLIMENE
TB CENTAURO

CA SAN GIORGIO

How did the German surface raiders get to Brest, or into the south Atlantic, or into the North Atlantic? Tricky, yes. Impossible, no. I count the following ships as available for the southern strategy in summer of 1940. A few of these might not have been sea worthy in the summer of 1940, I can't get specific details on exactly what they were doing during that time for some of them. This is my best guess:
Light Cruisers
Koln
Nürnberg

Heavy Cruisers
Admiral Scheer
Admiral Hipper
Prinz Eugen

Pre Dreadnoughts
Schleswig-Holstein
Schlesien

Battleships
Bismarck
Tripitz
Gneisenau
Scharnhorst

Destroyers
Richard Beitzen
Theodor Riedel
Hermann Schoemann
Bruno Heinemann
Hans Lody
Friedirch Ihn
Erich Steinbrinck
Friedrich Eckoldt
Z23
Z24
Z26

4. The Panzers were a few miles north of Bordeaux. They already had staging areas and supply depots. The panzers traveled the 600 miles from the Luxembourg border to a few miles north of Bordeaux, WHILE FIGHTING 4 ALLIED ARMIES, in 6 weeks. So now you are saying that they cannot continue on to Gibraltar unopposed in any time frame. Please put the crack pipe down.

5. So Admiral Raeder submitted a plan in writing to Hitler that had ZERO chance of being even attempted? Please, put down the crack pipe.

The British fully expected to lose the south Atlantic Islands and had contingency plans to retake them.

Yes, the operation in the South Atlantic would have been risky. Yes, it would have taken moving the German fleet through the English Channel, not impossible with Luftawaffe air cover. Yes, it would have meant first taking Gibraltar. Yes, it would have meant linking up with the Italian navy on the west coast of Spain. All operations which were proposed originally. All operations that would have to be given top priority if the Southern Strategy was to be adopted. Otherwise there is no southern strategy.

Your argument is that the army, navy, and air forces that just defeated the combined might of Britain, France, Holland and Belgium could not now move unopposed through Spain to Gibraltar and could not mount any kind of operations against the south atlantic islands. Excuse me for not putting so much faith in the Spanish military in summer of 1940.

Raeder made repeated requests to move the KM to south Atlantic ports because Brest was within British bomber range. Raeder thought it was possible to move the fleet there. Why would he make such a request if there was no way to do it?

Please put down the crack pipe. You sound ignorant.

The Spanish army was in southern Spain facing an imagined invasion from Britain. There was no way they were going to stop two panzer armies from moving from the stop line on June 22 across their border. Some of these units were less than 100 miles away on June 22. The border with France was in the German area after the armistace. What stops them from moving to the Spanish/French border on June 23/24? Let me guess, now you will tell me that the armies that just FOUGHT their way 600 miles across France cannot now DRIVE another 100 miles to the Spanish frontier.

I put the two panzer armies at the Spanish border no later than June 25. Hitler summons Franco to a conference at a place where Franco can see the German armies, and Hitler says, "we are moving to take Gibraltar with one panzer group, the other panzer group will defend Spain against British invasion in the north and west. The Luftwaffe will provide air cover. Spain can remain neutral and allow us passage or Spain can join in the attack. Either way the Panzers are moving in ten minutes". With the Spanish army in southern Spain, what could Franco have done about it?

Hitler gave other "allies" even more draconian ultimatums. Why is this so far fetched if Raeder and Goering convince Hitler that the southern strategy is the key to victory?

 

Im a little confused, maybe I just missed something but... how does all/any of this win the war for Germany?