How to---odd ways to kill a tiger.. ?

Well I believe story could have been true disagree on your point of view. :
First of all, who said it was a proper long sword ? It might have been a long bayonet or short sword.
Secondly:
If the jap killed the comander - hauled him out of the hatch, he could then have jumped down the hatch and easily killed the gunner in front of him.
But I admit : it takes a brave and athletic guy preferably around 5 feet 'tall'.
The survivors were lucky taht the jap didn't thrw a handgrenade down the hatch. and whether the story is true or not it mght serve as a warning for all tankers : Don't let any enemy foot soldier get too close !

 

The story said it was a Katana, not a Bayonet or a shortsword.

As to your jumping down the hatch and easily killing the gunner theory: There just is not enough room in the Sherman turret for such an action, let alone enough time for a breif hand-to-hand fight between the gunner and Japanese commander.

 

I can only see this actually happening if the gunner was standing straight below the open hatch and the Japanese officer simply lowered his sword into the gunner's head as he went after it.

 

Why can't you stab with the sword like a spear? Surely there is enough space for that?

Remember that there is more to a katana than big swishy swings and hacking blows

FNG

 

That's what I suggested, though the Japanese sword is not as much suited for stabbing as it is to slashing.

 

I disagree with that. The blade of a katana, unlike a lot of western blades is pointed at the end to specifically allow a thrusting action



Though it's not it's primary mode

FNG

 

Gentlemen, lets look at this obviously BS story again.

Ok, for the sake of argument, let’s ignore that American tanks were always almost completely surrounded with Allied infantry to help prevent incidents like this from happening. If this was an early model of the Sherman with an early turret, the commander was likely standing on the back of the tank and using the .50 caliber machine gun. So it is entirely possible that he was jumped and killed.

But then the story states that the Japanese soldier went inside the Sherman to kill the Gunner. Alright, let’s assume this American crew belonged on a short bus back in the states and ignore the fact that a pair of Japanese boots and leggings lowering themselves into the turret would alert the gunner. There is not enough room to wield a sword in the turret. LOOK at ANY photo of the inside of a Sherman turret. There is simply NO ROOM. He would have to hold his sword vertical just to fit it inside the commander's hatch (which hatch he took is also an absent tidbit of information. Perhaps, with his clearly uber blade, he cut the entire turret open? He should have, since this American Crew probably would not have noticed anyway) and then lower it to a horizontal position to stab the gunner, for which there is just a sore lack of room. You know what? This is just as ludicrous and flat-out insulting as the earlier statement that American infantry would jump inside oh-so-spacious tiger tanks and brawl with the crew.

 

I can't name a whole lot of European swords that don't have some kind of point. I suggest this article to you: http://www.thearma.org/essays/hype.htm

 

If the jap killed the comander - hauled him out of the hatch, he could then have jumped down the hatch and easily killed the gunner in front of him.

Whilst the remaining crew of course just sat there and utterly failed to notice that their commander had been killed and dragged from the tank, no blood, no movement, no scream and no-one else from any nearby vehicles and no other soldiers fired at him or even noticed him as he climbed aboard the tank and killed the commander and dragged him free?

Even accepting that, there is not enough room in a tank to stab or swing with something as long as a katana, let alone roll about on the floor having a fist-fight!

Alright, let’s assume this American crew belonged on a short bus back in the states

From the references to revolvers and the fact the story was supposedly reported second hand from a British tanker, I'd assumed that the crew were supposed to be British, but all other comments about the idiocy of the crew I agree whole-heartedly with.

 

You are correct, of course. My mistake.

 

aziz

if you believe this story you'll believe anything!

 

Well mr. Phelps: exactly where did you find the word Katana ? ( I havenøt read the original story only what I have quoted )
It might have been a long Jap bayomet for instance ?

I agree that this story is probably a bit 'spiced up', and the part of hand to hand fighting in the turret is totally unlikely.
But I have been living in the Arctic (Greenland) and heard several (true) stories which sounded incredibly unbelieable.
Living i extreme conditions creates extreme situations and a hot tank action is an extreme situation.
Shouldn't we just agree that we disagree ? Personally I like this story, but I don't beleive every word

 

Well Mr. Comet: The story states that it was 1) A Japanese Officer and 2) A Sword. It is pretty common knowlege that the swords that Japanese Officers carry around are Katanas.

 

Gentlemen, I received the book "World War II Infatry Anti-Tank Tactics" by G.L. Rottman in the mail today and the following story, which I believe is the very same incident you're discussing here, can be found on page 63 :

"In Burma one ( Japanese ) officer boarded an M3 Lee of the British 3rd Carabiniers and killed the commander and turret gunner with his sword, before being riddled with revolver bullets by the loader".

This does of course not give it more credibility, many such stories are repeted from book to book and this particular story have not been viewed with any scrutiny by the author. The Japanese officer could, however, have managed to stab both the commander and the turret gunner without actually entering the tank and then managed to get halfway inside before being shot dead by the loader.

 

[quote="Danyel Phelps wrote :

Well Mr. Comet: The story states that it was 1) A Japanese Officer and 2) A Sword. It is pretty common knowlege that the swords that Japanese Officers carry around are Katanas.[/quote]

Well I did actually figure that out, but I guess that we can assume that these combat accounts are not 100% accurate, so the narator could in theory confuse a long knife/bayonet with a proper sword.
Didn't japanese swords come in at least two variant ? a long and a short one ?
Why not try an reenactment ? I knowwhere to find an abandoned Centurion tank !

Anyhow this story is good entertainment just like the russian anti tank dogs !

 

Your thinking of Daisho, which is a Katana and a Wakizashi, a long and sword short. I've never heard of any story of Japanese officer carrying such weapons into battle.

But yes, I have heard and seen lots of stories of officiers carrying just the Katana.

I see no reason as to why the story is instantly dismissable. The swords were there and I don't see it beyond the realms of beleivability that a Japanese officer would charge a tank with his sword drawn. Furthermore this is a battle in the pacific where the fighting would often be in enclosed jungle and woods. Perfect for infantry to attack a tank at very close range where the commander would be exposed with the hatch open.

It's also logical that the attack would come fast and that an individual trained in the sword, agile and agresive could jump onto the tank, kill the comander in a single strike, pull him out and stab at the next opponent, the gunner, before being riddle by the loader.

But there is no reliable testimony or clear investigation of such an incident so it's impossable to prove fully.

FNG

 

I have to ask: Have any of you (Except Merlin, pretty sure you have) seen the inside of a Sherman turret? Ever? At all?

 

No I have only seen a Sherman tank from the outside, but I have been inside a Centurion tank ( al 4 crew member stations).
And Iadmit : Hand to hand fighting inside a tank possible even involving midgets.

But as FNG pointed out :
'It's also logical that the attack would come fast and that an individual trained in the sword, agile and agresive could jump onto the tank, kill the comander in a single strike, pull him out and stab at the next opponent, the gunner, before being riddle by the loader'

Anyhow I am pretty sure this story contains a core of truth, had the jap killed the commander with a gun and knocked out the tank with a grenade nobody would question the truth.

But this has been an interesting discussion and I will withdraw from it, feeling utterly entertained and enlightened.

 

This story isn't about a Sherman, but a Lee. This tank had an even smaller turret than the Sherman, IIRC.

 

The compartment below the turret on a Lee would offer a little more room for sword-play and maybe a little brawling as well.