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If France and Britain never delcared war on Germany for attacking Poland, what would have been Germa

Discussion in 'Alternate History' started by ww2fan, Oct 6, 2011.

  1. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    The Polish army went to Kiew, was this to gain acceptable borders on the east, or was it to recreate the historical Poland of the past ?

    The result was that Poland was saddled up with a population of which 33 % was non Polish .


    One can justifiedly argue that it was a mistake to go further than the Curzon line .
     
  2. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    NO. POLES DID THAT SHAMEFUL THING. POLES DID IT - ADMIT & REMEMBER THAT ONCE & FOREVER.

    No, my keyboard hasn't stuck - I haven't pushed a "caps lock" key accidentaly. That was intentional use of capital letters.
     
  3. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Getting a little emotional Tamino? I have never seen you like this.
     
  4. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    No, this was strictly business, as usual. ;)
     
  5. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    At that time those defeated in war were expected to pay, they were entirely at the mercy of the victors. And that was how Germany paid for the war. Frequently other powers intervened if the demands seemed excessive, but the Germans didn't have any friends in 1945. Bad luck.

    As they say "play stupid games win stupid prizes", Germany played and won a few really stupid "rewards".

    There was nothing illegal in those deportations, and the deportees were compensated for the loss incurred by their own government.
    Even the deportations of millions of Poles from annexed by the USSR territories weren't illegal because the Allies created their own puppet Polish government to OK them.
     
  6. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    But please, a war isn't over until the enemy admits it, and asks for peace.
    Nobody stops war, hands over initiative to the other side so they could regroup and attack at the place and time of their choosing. This is the most stupid military error even possible. Pressure must be maintained till they have enough.

    It can be argued but it was what the Poles wanted. Their leaders didn't have (and didn't want)) any choice in that matter. It's simply pointless to propose impossible solutions.

    Millions of Poles lived there, and actually they were the largest group, the others had only local majority. Independent local states, Ukrainian or Belorussian weren't possible. The Soviets would make short work of them. They had no chance of survival.
    By their actions the Poles rescued millions of people from certain death at the hands of the Soviets. This alone made it worth while.

    As to non-Polish population. Poland always was like that.
    It was a country built around ideas, ruled by elected kings (usually foreign), controlled by a parliament. The first, maybe imperfect democracy, in Europe. Somebody's ethnicity didn't matter, everybody had the same rights.
     
  7. belasar

    belasar Court Jester

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    The absolutism demonstrated here is most troubling.

    Lets take Poland and its expulsions post WWII as an example.

    They lose considerable amounts of their prewar eastern territories to Russia (heavily populated by Polish nationals), gain territory in the west at the expense of Germany (heavily populated by German nationals). All comes about because in 1939 both Russia and Germany use the excuse of protecting Russian/German ethnic populations as a excuse to go to war and destroy Polish sovereignty.

    Now if you were Poland, the concept of eliminating that excuse for future foreign invasions is understandable. More to the point though the action was not done in a vacuum. While it may have been done on the direct level by Polish forces, it was done at a minimum with the tacit approval of the Soviet Union who had a army of occupation on Polish soil, one vastly larger than Poland's. The Germans ejected were moved into another Soviet controlled nation/region (East Germany). I do not recall any serious objection within the soon to be Warsaw Pact, which of course means it was perfectly acceptable to Moscow.

    The only reasonable interpretation is that for their own reasons both governments had a hand in these mass movements of people.

    One might wonder if in the wake of Versailles had the same been done would WWII have been fought. It would have been hard on those in the border regions, but pales in comparison with the death and devastation of the war.
     
  8. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    At that time the Polish Army was fully controlled by the Soviets, not much later they would nominate a Soviet general as the Minister of Defense - just to be sure.
    Poland basically didn't exist till Stalin's death.

    And really it wasn't a tacit approval, it was a direct order:

    -------------------------------------
    Berlin Potsdam Conference, 1945
    Protocol of the Proceedings, August l, 1945
    The Berlin Conference of the Three Heads of Government of the U.S.S.R., U.S.A., and U.K., which took place from July 17 to August 2, 1945, came to the following conclusions:

    B. WESTERN FRONTIER OF POLAND.
    The three Heads of Government agree that, pending the final determination of Poland's western frontier, the former German territories cast of a line running from the Baltic Sea immediately west of Swinamunde, and thence along the Oder River to the confluence of the western Neisse River and along the Western Neisse to the Czechoslovak frontier, including that portion of East Prussia not placed under the administration of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics in accordance with the understanding reached at this conference and including the area of the former free city of Danzig, shall be under the administration of the Polish State and for such purposes should not be considered as part of the Soviet zone of occupation in Germany.
    [...]
    II. ORDERLY TRANSFER OF GERMAN POPULATIONS.
    The Three Governments, having considered the question in all its aspects, recognize that the transfer to Germany of German populations, or elements thereof, remaining in Poland, Czechoslovakia and Hungary, will have to be undertaken. They agree that any transfers that take place should be effected in an orderly and humane manner.
    -------------------------------------
     
  9. GunSlinger86

    GunSlinger86 Well-Known Member

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    Why were England and France willing to go to war over Poland, but not when Germany blatantly broke the Munich deal and occupied the rest of Czechoslovakia? Did it have to do with being more militarily prepared in September 1939 rather than March 1939? Did it have to do with The violation of Munich as THE last straw, and anything after that wouldn't be tolerated?
     
  10. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    One view, albiet from 1977:
    http://www3.nccu.edu.tw/~lorenzo/Alexandroff%20Deterrence%201939.pdf
     
  11. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    @Belasar,

    You know exactly how that matter has really happened: the whole inter-war and war period Poles were begging western allies to be granted the Greater Poland and, in the end, they have got half of it. That was all what the western allies could hand-over as a pay-of to Poles, not a square inch more, otherwise they would have, had the Operation Tempest succeeded.

    In the caseof that utterly inhumane matter, expulsion of the Germans from Poland, Soviets have played role of accidental onlooker. Uncle Joe played the role of Pontius Pilate in that screenplay written predominantly by western authors. Soviets just have allowed to be fulfilled what was agreed among the Allies, on request of Churchill hard pressed by the Poles. Regarding the eastern part of the Greater Poland refer to the map I am re-posting below. For you this should be acceptable as an accurate map – the source is State Department. Now, using that utterly wrong logic of »preemptive deportations«: it was much easier to ex-pulse much smaller number of Poles than handing over majority into hands of well established ethnic – cleansers, Poles. Again, by using the same wrong logic, now, Poles have no ground to claim »Polish« territories behind the Curzon line. There is no more Poles there as the Soviets did what Poles did to others- they were simply ex-pulsed. They just have been administered their own medicine: ethnic cleansing. They know what happened, as they are the masters of ethnic cleansing – Ultimate Ethnic Cleansers.

    Now, do you see what is the real problem of Central and East Europe: extreme, crude, rude ethnic hatred. You are lucky enough to be faraway from that unfortunate territory where people are proud of otherwise shameful history.


    [​IMG]
     
  12. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    The Allies didn't want war, they wanted peace. For this they presented Hitler with a credible military deterrent and it failed miserably as Takao's document shows.
    The Allies couldn't go to war over Munich - it would be seen as an act of aggression, because actually Germany didn't blatantly break the Munich. The Czechs (and Slovaks later) asked for protection themselves.
     
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  13. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    A single primary document saying so and it's proven. :)



    ------------------------------
    Conversation of Corps General Sikorski with Chairman of the Council of the Soviets Stalin at dinner in Kremlin
    4.XII.1941
    Most secret

    [...]Stalin stressed that Poland should be large and powerful, more powerful than ever.
    Stalin: you conquered Moscow twice. The Russians visited Warsaw a few times. We fought each other constantly. It's time to stop this brawling.
    [...]
    General Sikorsky said [...] he isn't ready to pursue the idea "more powerful than ever". He wants Poland stronger than she was in 1939.
    Danzig and Eastern Prussia are German colonies and a bulwark towards the East, both must belong to Poland (Stalin is nodding vigorously).
    But forcing on us the Lower Oder line is unrealistic.
    Why? Stalin asks. Because we can, using their methods deal with 2 millions Germans, with 9 millions we can't. We will help you to destroy [those] Germans - Stalin says.[...]
    Commander in Chief of the Polish Army in the USSR
    Władysław Anders
     
  14. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    There was a war on 1 september 1939, and F + B could not look the other way; there was no war in march 1939 thus no reason for F + B to start one . Violation of a treaty is not a reason for starting a war .And this is a good thing, otherwise.....
     
  15. green slime

    green slime Member

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    For the sake of the Almighty.

    Does every thread on this forum now devolve into squabbling of when who did what to whom in Eastern / Central Europe?

    Poland, Germany, Ukraine and Russia are political entities, and deserve themselves as neighbours.

    Ethnicity is connected to identity, language and culture. It's not scientifically determinable (even genetically), nor is it defined in terms of geography.

    Nationalism is a plague. There is no justice to be found in collective aggression.
     
  16. GunSlinger86

    GunSlinger86 Well-Known Member

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    It seems like every argument I've seen states that Germany could defeat any nation that had a larger military or better arms, and that multiple powers with a big numerical advantage is the only way Germany could ever lose, like they were invincible.
     
  17. GunSlinger86

    GunSlinger86 Well-Known Member

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    It seems like every argument I've seen states that Germany could defeat any nation that had a larger military or better arms, and that multiple powers with a big numerical advantage is the only way Germany could ever lose, like they were invincible.
     
  18. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Of course, all these arguments presuppose that the conflict take place once Germany has achieved her greater empire, and usually include a vast amount of Soviet territory.

    Can't say I've ever seen an cogent argument that Germany could defeat the United States.

    The Soviet Union could have taken Germany alone, but it would have taken longer.

    The United States could possibly have taken Germany by herself, but it would have taken much longer.
     
  19. green slime

    green slime Member

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    The cost in human lives alone would make a Soviet solo victory a horror story.. The Soviet shortcomings in agriculture (especially after the loss of Ukraine), and logistics without LL, doesn't really bear thinking about.
     
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  20. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    @Takao: :thumbup:

    @GunSlinger86
    That's essentially superficial view - Germany was prepared for a short war, to win battles but not the war. Britain along with the Commonwealth was capable defeating Germany in a war of attrition. Isn't that obvious that Germany has "won" and lost the war before the USA actually became belligerent in the war.
     

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