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If hitler began operation Barbarossa at his initial proposed date

Discussion in 'What If - European Theater - Eastern Front & Balka' started by .docholliday, Jan 13, 2008.

?

Could Hitler have succeded in destroying the Russian state in 1941 or at least reaching the Ural mou

  1. Yes, it could be realised

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. No

    14 vote(s)
    40.0%
  3. Hitler captures mowcow but red army communications arn't shattered

    16 vote(s)
    45.7%
  4. Hitler captures Moscow, but Wehrmacht doesn't have the manpower to continue obilteration of Russia

    5 vote(s)
    14.3%
  1. Kruska

    Kruska Member

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    Hello redcoat,

    ehmm.:eek:,ahh.:eek:..thanks..I will still try to find that darn Wiki page :eek:
    It's all my dad's fault, because he never got me one of those modell trains
    and therefore I seem to have a somewhat deficiency in that particular field:eek:

    Regards
    Kruska
     
  2. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    :lol:

    Now 20,000 sounds more like what I have come across. :D

    Thanks RC ;)
     
  3. Kruska

    Kruska Member

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    Allright I found it - and bow my head in deep shame and apology!

    Lend-Lease - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I should then have read on to the next following sentence.

    Hmm, nutty me..,

    Regards
    Kruska
     
  4. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Oh stop it. I happened to think it was pretty funny. ;) :D
     
  5. Volga Boatman

    Volga Boatman Dishonorably Discharged

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    This is one of the biggest myths of 'Barbarossa', a myth still perpetrated to this day by apologists for the German war effort. Starting the operation earlier would have made no difference to the eventual outcome. At this point, I must consult sources, and my source is none other than Marshal G.K. Zhukov, drawing from a paper he wrote called 'The Battle for the Capital'......(Take it away, Georgi.....)


    "In the years since the war Nazi generals and bourgeois historians have had a great deal to say about Russian bad roads and mud on one hand, and the Russian frost on the other. This kind of myth making has already been properly discredited, nevertheless I would like yet again to draw the attention of readers to what General Tippelskirch has written, claiming it as the element which prevented Nazi forces from capturing Moscow; 'To move along roads became impossible,' he writes 'the mud stuck to our feet, to the hooves of animals, to the wheels of carts and vehicles.....the offensive came to a halt.'
    When the Nazi generlas were planning their expedition to the east, did they really expect to ride the whole way to Moscow and beyond on smooth, well surfaced roads? Well, if they did, so much the worse for them and for the Nazi forces which, as Tippelkirch claims, were brought to a halt by the mud on the approaches to Moscow. In those days I saw with my own eyes thousands and thousands of women citizens of Moscow, most of whom were not accustomed to heavy civil engineering, and who had come lightly clothed from their apartments in the city. In that same bad weather and mud they were digging anti-tank ditches and trenches, erecting anti-tank obstacles, putting up barricades and entanglements, and dragging sandbags. The mud stuck to their feet too, and to the wheels of the barrows in which they transported the earth, and made the shovels, which were not made for women's hands anyway, incomparibly heavier....I don't think I need push the comparison any further, but I may add, for the benefit of those who want to hide the real reasons for their defeat under the mud, that in October 1941 the season of bad roads was relatively short. The cold weather began early in November, snow fell, and terrain and roads became impassable everywhere. In the November days of the German 'General offensive', the temperature in the Moscow combat area levelled out at seven to ten degrees of frost, and everybody knows that at those temperatures there isn't any mud."

    Further down....."The readiness of the workers to sacrifice themselves in the defence of their capital had a great moral effect on the troops, multiplying their strength and reinforcing their will to fight."

    This same factor would have applied to the German offensive no matter what time of year 'Barbarossa' was unleashed. General Franz Halder states, quite catagorically, that the Eastern offensive had to be postponed from it's early date to "...let the ground dry out" from a "..late Spring thaw" present at the time.....So....early "Barbarossa" would have been slowed to a crawl from the outset by road conditions.


    German apologists for the failure of the Great Gamble are legion.......The Russians beat their magnificent offensive fair and square.......Russian tenacity carried the day in 1941...something that would have applied no matter what time period 'Barbarossa' was launched.
     
  6. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    I didnt mention Hitler getting to the Urals which I doubt would be possible in 3 years of warfare even with peace in the West.
     
  7. Kruska

    Kruska Member

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    Hello B.E.,

    sorry my mistake - I apologize - I mistakenly thought you had started this thread and posted the poll headline
    Regards
    Kruska
     
  8. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Somehow HIlter winnng doesn't translate to Utopia for me. :)
    The problem is that in order for Germany to have a chance you have to change things far enough back that Hitler may not even come to power (or he's so changed that he's not the Hitler we know). It's a case of you can't get there from here.
     
  9. Kruska

    Kruska Member

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    Hello Iwd,

    hm??:confused:

    Utopia: An ideally perfect place, especially in its social, political, and moral aspects.
    The word Utopia comes from the Greek: οὐ, "not", and τόπος, "place", indicating that Sir Thomas More was utilizing the concept as an allegory, as such he did not consider such an ideal place to be realistically possible.

    So a Hitler "could" have won - is realistically impossible right? :) = Utopia

    Regards
    Kruska
     
  10. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Well let's see page A21 mentions
    "Persistent indadequacy of rail transport" as of 2 August.
    Page A23 has a table that shows persistent deficits delivered to the advanced rail heads. Also on that page it's mentioned that by 10 July 25% of transport is out of commission. But of course this is the analysis of a study that was acknowled to have been made with marginal data. Given what I've read it hardly presents unequivical support of your postion.
     
  11. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Certainly much closer than the other way around .... :)
     
  12. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    Apart from the early bottle necks page 13 says they were no supply problems till the Soviet counter offensive when the number of trains again would have to be increased.
    Now considering the original plan was to be a 5 million man invasion (What would have happened had all troops based in the West been available) I dont see why 13 more divisions in the centre will make any difference.
     
  13. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    First of all this docuemnt is hardly defintive. There is no author or date sidted and it's primary purpose seems to be to review an earlier (wartime?) study.

    That considered it hardly says there were no supply problems. Indeed the quotes for Halder and the very page you sited indicate that they weren't getting enough supplies to the front until the middle of September and even then they are not gettin enough fuel forward as Halder apparently compained that they were getting only 26 trains forward out of 30 required in late September. Now you are throwing an extra 13 divisions into that mess. While that may only represent an increase of 5% when you have a negative situation that can add up to a significant amount over 3 months or so. Of course they also comment that the intial force was 141 divisions and just over 3 million men rather than the 5 you mention so make that more like 10% additional load. Note that this imples the fuel train requrements would be raised to 32 to 33 in late September when they are only gettin 26. This means every one is hurting more or operations have been curtailed earlier due to lack of fuel. Then there's the fact that part of the supply problem was eased to some extent becuase they weren't getting the replacments or able to do all the reapirs they needed to keep the force up to strenth. Surely another indicator of logistics problems. So even if the analysis is accurate your contentions are hardly proven.
     
  14. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Other referances
    http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/op...s-of-the-failure-of-operation-barbarossa.html
    http://en.allexperts.com/e/o/op/operation_barbarossa.htm





    From page 15 in http://carl.army.mil/download/csipubs/wray/wray_chap_2.pdf
    The above reference also makes the point that the Germans were no longer able to conduct simultaneous offensives by all army groups at that point.
     
  15. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    As I said the initial plan was an invasion of just over 5 million men.
    The actual invasion was of course much less.
    As for September the problems where caused by rapid advance not capacity problems.
    Thus the problem was resolved by a short delay.
    Besides the fact that Army Group North at this point would require far less fuel.
    Meaning more than enough to maintain movement for Army Group Centre.
     
  16. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    You could give some sources for an invasion of 5 million men,because,as far as I know,the strength of the Wehrmacht in june 1941 was :
    Feldheer :3.8 million Ersatzheer :1.1 million
    Luftwaffe :1.68 million
    Kriegsmarine :0.404 million
    Waffen SS :O.15 million
    The actual invasion strength was 2.75 million,with 0.5 million reserves (26 divisions,of which some were only engaged in september)and 0.5 million replacements
     
  17. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    And had pretty severe supply problems.
    It wasn't just in September. The supply problems started in July and they were hardly resolved after a "short delay". Indeed I find nothing to indicate they were ever truly resolved.
    How do you come by this?
    Or not. Hint it's not just available fuel supply that's the problem.
     
  18. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    I know as I said the problem was the Soviet counter offensive in December.
     
  19. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    The original plan involved troops that had to be despatched to the Balkans and N Africa.
    Also you need to count the troops of Finland, Romania, Hungary, Slovakia, Croatia and Italy.
     
  20. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    Early supply problems were caused by bottle necks not capacity problems.
     

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