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If the 1 PM Message did not suggest a dawn attack on Pearl Harbor, why is it in the Knox Investigati

Discussion in 'Pearl Harbor' started by DogFather, Jul 15, 2011.

  1. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Why should they have been told? A war warning means war is likely immenent doesn't it? That much was pretty clear to everyone. Indeed Short specifically took measure to protect against sabotage which is the kind of attack he expected.
    Again there was no need to.
    No they didn't need that information to understand the above.
    Wrong, still. There was evidence but hardly a mountain. Most of the Magic intercepts as has been pointed out were not translated until well after the fact. Then there was the general consensus in any case that war was coming. In The First Team very early on it makes the point that Halsey was scouting ahead of Enterprise (i.e. to the west) even though he didn't expect the Japanese to be operating East of Wake. War was expected. Kimmel expected it. Short Expected it. Halsey expected it. The list goes on. What no one really expected was for it to start with a carrier raid on PH. A surprise attack yes but not on Pearl.
    ...
    What ultimatum?
    They had already recieved war warnings, what more should have been necessary.
     
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  2. freebird

    freebird Member

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    That is the central point, they shouldn't have needed to be told specific details about the Japanese attack, (which the Us did not have), a warning that "war is imminent" (or even a strong possibility) should have had all US bases on high alert, with all possible measures taken.
     
  3. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Dogfather doesn't know the definition of an ultimatum.
     
  4. DogFather

    DogFather Member

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    A reason they should have been told more, is that Kimmel was assured he would be getting all info on the diplomatic
    situation and had put in writting how important this was and told he would get it. He did not get this info. These Pearl
    Harbor commanders, were not given info on the gravity of the situation. Both Short and Kimmel should have been ordered
    to go to full alert. Stark and Marshall failed in this regard, no doubt about that. Two past patrol wing commanders, testified that finding a strike force, even if they had plenty of planes, was at best a 50-50 chance. More recon might not have helped at all.

    The best way to handle the situation was for Kimmel to take the fleet to sea. Reduce the number of targets in Hawaii,
    because the island was hard to defend. Taking unnecessary risks with a battle fleet, is not a good idea. This is a common
    sense thing but also part of battle fleet command doctrine. This doctrine was not being followed with the fleet at PH.

    Marshall should have ordered Short to go to full combat status, as he saw war approaching thur Magic messages.
    Some of these things are not that hard to figure out, some of you just don't want to see it. I don't know why. There is
    kind of a group, that lives on this forum and backs each other up. These same folks also go to other forums and do the
    same thing. I don't see what the point of that is either. I will work on a post suggesting failures, by FDR,
    Marshall, Stark and others, explain it to people willing to see the reality of it all. A cover-up took place after the attack.
    It started during a very uncertain time, after the attack and once started, it was continued, for political reasons. It could have been stopped by FDR, but he chose not to. A war was on and it is just a mistake he made.
     
  5. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Kimmel didn't need all the diplomatic info. He just used that as an excuse to cover his "act".

    Short's alert status was inverted, so Marshall thought he was at full alert. And if Marshall had micro managed the outliers you'd be complaining about that.
     
  6. DogFather

    DogFather Member

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    He needed to know what was going on in Washington, if it might lead to war. As far a complaining about Marshall, were I
    got that complaint, that Hawaii should have been put on full combat status is the APHB. Is is not my complaint.

    The book, "And I was there" Pearl Harbor and Midway, says on page 223. That Kimmel, met the demands of war plan 46,
    by sending Halsey's TF 8 to Wake and Newton's TF 12 to Midway, along with Brown's cruisers of TF 5, toward Johnson
    Island. This was long distance recon, looking for the Japanese. They were not there, but it was thought they might be
    because of using islands south of Hawaii to refuel. The Pacific is a real big ocean, Kimmel was looking and did not find them.

    The only thing that would have for sure given advanced notice of the attack, would be to create a ring
    around the island, of ships equiped with radar. In other words radar pickets, like the fleet did during the
    Battle of Okinawa.
     
  7. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Dear Confusion Theorist Dogfather,
    Yes, and Stark closed a memo to Kimmel dated November 7, 1941
    Of course there was the "war warning" message of October 16, 1941, that was sent to Kimmel.
    From a letter from Stark to Kimmel dated November 14, 1941, closes with
    Sorry DogFather, but in this case, you are "barking up the wrong tree." Kimmel was given plenty of warnings, well in advance of December 7, 1941. Short of sending a message to Kimmel saying "You will be attacked on December 7th, 1941." Washington was doing it's bit to send what information he was cleared for.
    DogFather, unless your saying that Kimmel & Short were total morons who were unfit for command because they could not think for themselves and needed to be told how to do every little thing, yet one more message on the American-Japanese situation is not going to change their minds any.
    Did not Kimmel have Edwin T. Layton as his staff Fleet Intelligence Officer? Did not Layton spend 3 YEARS(1929-32) as a naval attache to the American Embassy in Tokyo? Did Layton not spend A FURTHER 2 YEARS as an assistant naval attache to the American Embassy in Tokyo(1937-39)? I would think that Layton, with several years of "up-close and personal" experience with the Japanese, in his weekly intelligence briefings, should have been able to make Kimmel understand the dire situation that was unfolding. But, then again, perhaps, Layton isn't as great as he makes himself out to be in "I was There."
    Yes, there was plenty of information to be had. Anyone who read a newspaper or listened to a radio news broadcast, pretty much could tell the situation was going to "Hell in a handbasket."
    Depends on your source, Prange has it the other way around with Germany pressing Japan to enter the war during confrences in Berlin between March 27 - April 4, 1941. Reaffirming this on November 30, 1941 during talks between Oshima & Ribbentrop.
    WHAT IS YOUR POINT????? KIMMEL RECIEVED ALL OF THE FROM WASHINGTON! HE DID NOT FEEL IT WAS IMPORTANT AND NEVER DISCUSSED THESE MATTERS WITH GENERAL SHORT! HAVE YOU ACTUALLY READ ANY INFORMATIVE MATERIAL ON PEARL HARBOR OR DO YOU JUST READ CONSPIRACY THEORY BOOKS?????
    Kimmel and Short also knew most of it, the only thing that they had not had access to was the 14-Part Message. Makes you wonder how many straws are really needed to "break a camel's back." As I have said before, I don't think one more additional message is going to make Kimmel's elevator go all the way to the top.
    Washington also did not tell the "when to go to bed," "What to eat", "When to go to the bathroom", "When to breath". These are men who have risen up the chain of command to rather lofty positions, they did not get this far because they had to be told how to do every little thing. But, apparently, they didn't need to be told how to do the "little" things, they needed to be told how to do the "big" things. As such, your argument that Washington needed to tell them everything, makes Kimmel and Short out to be utter morons who were unfit for command. On the bright side, I am sure there are several people who would agree with you on that.
    Then again, IT MIGHT NOT. Kimmel knew of the code-burning and the possible "Winds" code, yet, to him, this ment very little. So much so, that he never passed the information along to General Short. IIRC, General Short testified that had he been informed of the code-burning, he would have reacted differently prior to the attack. Which leads us back to Kimmel. He testified that had he been aware of the "bomb plot" message, he would have reacted differently, but to those in Washington, the "bomb plot" message meant very little. To General Miles, it was aan easier way to keep track of the comings and goingd of navy vessels. To Commander Kramer, it was a way for the Japanese to simplyfy communications, therefore cutting costs. Kramer's superiors also payed this message little attention. So, who is to say what would have actually "woken up" Kimmel and Short to the evnts transpiring around them.
    Actually, that could not be further from the truth, but then again, your used to being far from the truth. I have been picking apart your posts for a while now. When I see a post so filled with untruths and half-truths I just have to voice my knowledge on the matter. I put a lot of effort into the post, because it was so filled with untuths and half-truths that I had to address, for the most part, each one seperately. I also take note, that you did not rebut any of my statements. But instead proceeded into a long, but essentially pointless spiel about what information Kimmel had or didn't have. Finally, I paid very little attention to your quip that I should read your conspiracy theory books. I was more annoyed with your poor research and your inability to properly cite or identify your sources. I spent a bit of time going over the PH volumes(32 & 33) concerning the NCI transcripts and exhibits, and never found you passage. It was only after you posted where you had gotten it from that I saw it was not part of the NCI volumes at all.
    Oh joy, more fantasy..First, let me put on my "Wizzard" hat and then let me get my towel.
     
  8. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Wrong. First, check Short's alert system. Spot the problem.
    Layton was in IMAC mode. You do know his relationship to Kimmel, don't you?
    And give WP-46 a break, you haven't read it, so you can't say what was in compliance and what wasn't.
    Paging Cdr. Taylor.
     
  9. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Your putting the cart before the horse DogFather. Look at the information Kimmel had gotten(not what he had didn't), and look at what he did with it.
    More fantasy? Take the fleet to sea where it had no air cover at all, no carriers and no ground based interceptors. Take the fleet to sea, where any warships lost would be unsalvageable, and the loss of life far greater than it historically was. On the upside, Kimmel likely would have died, and there would be no one to blame but Admiral Kimmel. One less conspiracy theory and a lot of authors out of work.
    Seems to me that Marshall believed that Short had the mental capacity to figure that one out on his own. Also, Short had not sent Washington his revised Alert Status list. As far as Washington knew Short was on his "highest" Alert Status. They did not know he had reversed the list, thus his "highest" Alert became his "lowest". Had Washington been informed of the change they likely would have done as you suggest. After all, if someone told you that they were on their "highest" Alert, you would not then ordern them to go to their "highest" Alert.
    Apparently to one, they are.
    Well, in a sense were are a group, we are all members of ww2f.com. However, we don't always back each other up, since we are all individuals who can think for ourselves, we can read whatever material and draw our own conclusions. Still, we can also read the material and come to the same, or mostly similar conclusions which we hold to be true. Sadly to say, DogFather, in all your posts, you have not presented any "new" material that changes my mind on the subject of Pearl Harbor even the tiniest of a fraction. Still, you keep trying, which is commendable. Perhaps, one day you will, then again, perhaps not.
    Yes, I agree a cover-up did take place, and it was very successful. Just as the Japanese kept their plan for Pearl Harbor hidden, the US kept concealed MAGIC, and the Japanese never found out we were reading their codes until it came out in the Congressional Hearings.
    So your saying that FDR should have revealed MAGIC to the American public? With a war on, do you seriously think it is in America's best interest to let our enemies know that we are reading their codes. IIRC, Britain kept ENGIMA secret for a lot longer than America kept MAGIC. Of course, the British don't have to deal with Congress...
    ADWS put's it better.
    Given Kimmel's track record for interpretation, I am going to go with Prange on this one.
    While reading "And I Was There", there are many time when I think Layton wasn't, and this is one of those times. Kimmel was not meeting any "War Plan", OPNAV requested that he send fighter reinforcements to Wake & Midway. Had OPNAV not made this request, you can be fairly certain that those carriers would not have been at sea.
     
  10. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Gee, if Kimmel didn't bother letting his most forward unit know about the War Warning Message we would almost have to conclude that he wasn't worried about an attack. But that would mean that he didn't think his command was under any threat. Just like the rest of the Navy.
     
  11. DogFather

    DogFather Member

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    Takao, if you know so much more than these people that were there, the NCI and the APHB. Why don't you write a book.
    You are always claiming you know more than published authors, so help us all out. How do you know ADWS is completely
    correct and other books are not? I'm sorry but what I have found is the people who claim to know so much, often have a
    real problem with arrogance and are so self absorbed, they seem incapable of rational thought. They are very self-assured but often simply wrong. If you don't like my posts why don't you ignore them. You follow me to other forums and do the
    same thing. I guess you figure those other forums need your help or something. I can see why you do it, after all you know everything, people should just understand and accept this. I do intend to post more about FDR and PH, when I get
    time.

    I would also like to see a source on Kimmel failing to give Newton the intel that Kimmel did have available. Why would he
    does this, it does not make sense. Halsey got the Nov 27th War Warning and Newton did not? Halsey was a more aggressive commander, that's true. But Newton also did recon flights, in an atempt to gather info on the Japanese.
     
  12. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Admiral Newton also testified to the Hart Commission that he had not seen or been informed of any of the other previous "war warning" messages either. Since, Admiral Brown was Newton's direct superior, and Admiral Brown had not passed along any information, other than in Newton's words
    Also, neither Kimmel nor any members of his staff met with Newton to inform him of any additions or changes to his mission. From reading Admiral Newton's testimony to the Hart Inquiry, it would seem that Admiral Brown was kept in the dark about the warning, or at a minimum, was not fully informed of the import of what was happening, as well as not being informed of these supposed "reconnaissance efforts" according to WPL46. So we, are left to wonder, what was Kimmel really accompishing at Pearl, prior to Decmber 7, 1941.
     
  13. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    You have the right to post, even if it's utter nonsense (within reason and at least superficially on topic (and you have the right to have your posts binned if they get too silly, of course). Takao has the right to respond. So don't whinge about responses to your conspiracy theories. You keep bringing them up, hoping to fool at least a few people, and then you complain when they're shot full of holes. Dogfather, this is no forum for bluffing.
     
  14. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    According to First Team Halsey wasn't really expecting contact with the Japanese. Indeed he didn't expect them to be operating anywhere east of Wake. However he wasn't about to take any chances and may also have wanted to make it clear to his command just how serious the situation was. Some posters might be uncomfortable if such behaviour was compared to others currently under discussion.
     
  15. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Dear Confusion Theorist DogFather,
    What point would it serve? All my knowledge about Pearl Harbor comes from works already written, as such I have "nothing new to bring to the table." I can't see writing a book, unless I have "something new to offer" any readers. And I have no intention of delving into "conspiracy theory" Pearl Harbor books just to make a fast buck.
    When did I ever claim that "I know more than published authors"? Please post a quote of me saying that, go on, I Double Dog Dare you... It's not what "I Know," it is what "I Believe." There is a differnce between the two. Present me with good irrefutable information and I might change my mind. However, you have not presented any good irrefutable information...
    Arrogant, Self-Absorbed, Incapable of rational thought...I'm confused DogFather, are you describing me, or you. Please quote any post where you though I was being irrational, and I will do my level best to make it more rational for you.
    If your say that I am "simply wrong" than refute my statements! It is as easy as that. Yet, I can't recall any instance where you have even once attempt to refute any one of my posts. You make a claim or post one of your half-truths, I refute it, and you run off making another wild claim or half-truth. This makes it appear to me that you have absolutely no confidence in the arguments you present, or else, you would stand your ground and back them up!
    It is not that I like or dislike them, it is that they are filled with inconsitancies, half-truths, shoddy research, and only present one point-of-view. i could stand by and ignore them, but that would leave readers with only your beliefs to go from, so I present our members with an opposing viewpoint, that way they can get both sides and then judge for themselves.
    How warped is your reality? I am only a member of TWO FORUMS! This one and the Axis History Forum over at Axis History Forum • Index page I have been a member of the current AHF since March 10, 2002, and was an member of the old AHF board from back in the 1990's. If you are AHF member "Big Dog", you joined on October 28, 2009(HINT - you join date is on all your posts. Since you can't do math, that is a good 7 years BEFORE you joined. If you are not AHF member "Big Dog", well then I apologize, and ask you for you proper AHF name, so I can make my statement more accurate. Although, come to think of it, you might be AHF member "robdab" or was it "dabrob", still he joined in 2007. So, I really, really, really, don't think I followed you anywhere... FYI, I joined here because AHF had gotten a little "slow"(not many posts caught my interest) and ww2F had some good Pacific topics going on. So I joine up. Trust me when I say that I did not choose to become a member here just to make you life "a living hell."
    I don't know "everything", and don't make that claim. I might know a lot about some things, but most certainly not "everything." As for posting more on FDR and PH, I've got my "Wizzard" hat and towel, so I am as prepared as I will ever be.
    I am surprised you did not know this. Don't your "Conspiracy Theory" books mention it? I would think they should. However, it does seem to put Kimmel in a bad light, and that could lead to "cracks in their theories. However, since you did ask. Just to name a few, please read pages 460-461 of Prange's ADWS, Pg. 301 of Clausen's "Pearl Harbor: Final Judgement", or read Admiral Hart's testimony in the Hart Inquiry - it can be viewed or downloaded in .pdf form from OpanaPointer's website here: http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/congress/Vol26.pdf His testimony begins on page 339.
     
  16. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Thank you for the correction lwd. Still, I think my main points stands - That Halsey was expecting some kind of contact with the enemy, and the recon flights were seeing, first and foremost, to the safety of his carrier task force, with whatever "War Plan" intentions Kimmel had, coming in a distant second.
     
  17. DogFather

    DogFather Member

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    I realize Takao you did not join any forum, because of me. The point is that these are discussion forums, so I want to
    find out what other people think. That is why I joined and posted on various topics. If you or others post the same answers,
    you do here, it hinders my effert to find out what others think, and have a discussion. It has in some cases anyway.

    The on-going name calling, is just something that I don't think is appropriate. It is a little child like and to me suggestive of some of the arrogance some of you have. I tried to make light of it and joke a little about it. Because it is kind of silly.

    I have never suggested a conspiracy, where FDR and/or his admin had foreknowledge, of the time and date of the attack well in advance of Dec 7th. A cover-up of some of the factors the increased
    the magnitude of the disaster, yes I think that is true. As well as a failure on the part of FDR, to listen to his military commanders, which was also covered up. I see nothing wrong with suggesting this on WW2
    forums. It is not some wacko idea, or conspricy. It is a understanding I came to after studying FDR, Adm
    Richardson, Adm Nimitz and others.

    I came to this idea in about 2008-2009. I am not the only one. PH: Fruits and Seeds of Infamy does the same thing. Its copywright is 2010, so I had not read the book back in the 2008-2009 time frame.
    Calling me names is just a way to try and discredit me, becasue you are out of ammo and for whatever
    reason don't like this idea about FDR. Even though it's true.
     
  18. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Dogfather, you are just insulting our group intelligence by pretending you're not a conspiracy theorist. You post from the worst of them and then act all innocent. You may be fooling yourself, but the score doesn't go higher than one.
     
  19. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    In some ways I think it makes your points even stronger as it reinforces the following:
    1) No one expected the Japanese that far east.
    2) Halsey was behaving in a very profesional manor by minimizing any potential of a surprise being thrown at him. Kimmel and Short seem to have concluded that the only possible attacks they would have to deal with directly were sabotage and Japanese submarines. They took measures to counter these but didn't seem to be overly concerned with the Japanese "pulling a fast one". Now in their defence the threat was greater for Halsey but ...
     
  20. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    But this and most other historical forum are for informed discussion. It really doesn't matter to most of us what someone who has little knowledge of the topic at hand thinks. We are hear to learn and help others to learn; that comes from facts and logical discussions and debates. Thus you are likely to feel somewhat frustrated as many simply don't care whether or not you find out "what other people think" or not epecially if it involves unsupported allegations and twisted logic.

    To other readers and posters on this board: If I am mistaken in this please tell me.
     

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